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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 9:13:54 GMT 1
A fireman friend of mine used to work the night shift at Todmorden Fire Station. He worked so hard and was (presumably) so badly paid that he had to have a virtually full time, tax free, day job cleaning windows as well. His night time on the job kipping was so knackering that he was forced to retire in his early fifties. When you say "used" to how far back are you talking? Todmorden is a retained station (part time) and firefighting is their part time job so this job "on the side" is likely to be his main source of income. I'm guessing about 12 years ago before he decided it was too far to drive for a nights kip . |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 9:42:43 GMT 1
I've got to admit though that he was a bloody good pool and darts player.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 9:54:32 GMT 1
Each and every point you made there is total bollocks. Point 1. If the contract I signed in 2002 stated I worked until 60 I would have no argument. It didn't and therefore this government saw fit to change our contracts on a whim. Imagine deciding to only pay half your council tax, would you get away with it? No! Nobody has yet to show me any proof that the new rules expect Fire Fighters to work past 60. All the news items I've seen say that they are striking because of the outrage at being expected to work until 60. Point 2. A 1% pay rise year on year is lower than inflation and in real terms a pay CUT. Add to that the 2% pension increase and you see why 1% isn't realistic. Still, nobody is complaining about that. Irrelevant, they are striking on getting 1% more than the rest of the country who are coping with pay freezes or cuts. Point 3. Define a day? If a "day" is 40 hours over a 7 day period then firefighters actually do the equivalent of 42 over 7 days. More than the average private sector worker. Nobody is complaining about that though so keep on throwing your childish ill thought out comments in there. It makes you look daft. Another one who can't read..... the 195 days a year is what teachers are expected to work. I've already explained this, but here you go again.....Point 1 - aimed at the fire service, Point 2 - aimed at the NHS, Point 3 - Aimed at teachers. Maybe if you had applied yourself a bit more you could be afforded some of the "perks" public sector workers get over the private sector. I'm self employed and quite happy with that. I did however convince my ex to join the NHS just for the benefits. She had no pension at 45, but will now get 1/3 of her final salary on retirement. The problem I have with the public sector is the striking over conditions and pensions which are already far better than the rest of us put up quietly with. Then again I guess it doesn't take too much skill to cut a 4 year old girls lifeless body out of a car crash and watch as the paramedics battle in vain to save her. Again, irrelevant to the argument. |
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Post by BLUE&WHITE on Jul 11, 2014 10:01:44 GMT 1
When you say "used" to how far back are you talking? Todmorden is a retained station (part time) and firefighting is their part time job so this job "on the side" is likely to be his main source of income. My kids go to school with the son of a current full-time fireman. He works on the side as a window cleaner with his mate, who is also a full time fireman. So the guy works hard and runs two jobs to help provide the best for his family? What's your point? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 10:05:24 GMT 1
Seriously - The government must be well pleased to see the working class arguing amongst themselves over the scraps whilst the privately educated 7% take the prime cuts. The UK's a f*cking joke and I'm glad my family are well out of it.
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Post by OldRastrickian on Jul 11, 2014 10:15:07 GMT 1
Those complaining about unilateral changes to their public sector employment contracts should recognise that, when private companies go bust (as a great many do), staff's employment contracts disappear down the toilet. The British State is effectively bust. We are one of the most indebted nations on the planet......under this government of "cuts" and "austerity", the national debt will have doubled. The government's borrowing (to fund public expenditure) is now so excessive that, even at current low rates of interest, the interest bill is over £1 billion per week. We are living hopelessly beyond our means.....a half of all UK households now receive more in publicly-funded benefits than they pay in taxes.
It is utter insanity......and one factor feeding that is an over-rewarded, top-heavy public sector. Under the last Labour government, public sector employment increased by 600,000 people......yet if you'd blinked, you'd have missed any significant improvement in the quality of services being offered. This government has driven some reduction in the number of public employees....but, surprise, surprise, the public sector offers far more generous redundancy terms than most of the private sector, so savings from a reduced number of salaries take a while to materialise.
I don't criticise anyone in the public sector from seeking to protect their own self-interest....that's only natural. But I don't work in that sector.....and, as an outsider, I believe they have to take their share of the pain which so many in the private sector have been bearing for years. And, to date, I believe the sector has still not been sufficiently reined in to reflect the economic reality of the UK today. In fairness, there are also other areas of public expenditure.....eg foreign aid.....which have also failed to recognise that reality.
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Post by space hardware on Jul 11, 2014 10:32:34 GMT 1
My kids go to school with the son of a current full-time fireman. He works on the side as a window cleaner with his mate, who is also a full time fireman. So the guy works hard and runs two jobs to help provide the best for his family? What's your point? Read the posts I'm quoting before throwing a hissy fit. Hilly was asking Kiwi whether the guy he knew who moonlighted as a window cleaner was a part or full time fireman at Todmorden. I'm stating that I know a guy who is a full time fireman, who also works as a window cleaner. |
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k1man999
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Post by k1man999 on Jul 11, 2014 10:33:33 GMT 1
as a public sector worker i agree with the statement that there is a lot of over paid,over rewarded top end admiistrators etc within councils NHS etc but most of the people who are shouting their cause are low to middle income employees who see their conditions and pay cut whilst the top end and the MPs still getting what they want.
re the private sector it is the same bankers at the top end and company directors get mass pay offs and bonuses but the lower to middle income employees get shit on.
its the same in both the public and private sector the top end and decision makers look after themselves and the bottom end takes the hit.
this needs to be addresssed how can a middle manager in the nhs or other company earn more than a nurse/doctor etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 10:38:25 GMT 1
"...this needs to be addresssed..."
Easy, vote Labour... Oh, shit, they're all ex public school boys with rich daddies too.
Best bet ..emigrate and get equality for your family.
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Post by terracesider on Jul 11, 2014 10:51:49 GMT 1
Interesting thread: Plenty of reasoned debate and rational discussion - not sure what it's doing on the main board of a Town M.B. but there you go.... As a retired private sector worker (I didn't realise until this last few minutes that there is such a chasm between my former colleagues and those who have to earn a crust in the "public sector) the obvious question running through my mind is: How do so many folk - considering that most of the contributions were made to the thread much earlier in the day - have time during a busy working day to be able to write long erudite pieces in some cases amounting to mini dissertations??? Just a thought.... Erm... Perhaps they're all on strike (hence the topic) perhaps? But don't let your moment of forgetfulness spoil your cheap shot Addressed to fellow workers my comments really would have been a "cheap shot." The obvious point that I was making was that there seems in the present day workplace to be plenty of scope for wasting time (as I am doing now  ) writing cr*p on FOOTBALL message boards... I would also add that in my day (the more militant 70's) when we were on strike we either; a) spent the day picketing/persuading any doubters to join the action. or b) had a march around the streets with banners etc. rallying the general populace to our cause ----- usually without much effect  But definitely we were NOT skiving around in front of a PC (or similar) A strike ain't a holiday. |
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Post by brighousebandbred on Jul 11, 2014 11:57:02 GMT 1
OldRastrican as per usual as soon as a debate about your favourite subject crops up . You start your spiel boring, boring, boring. I bet your single because nobody could live with your boring negative spin surely.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jul 11, 2014 12:09:23 GMT 1
this 'share of the pain" crap, raised its ugly and false head.
the rubbish at the bottom end wont have any benefit cuts because they make too much noise.. the proper people who have fallen on hard times will suffer in silence, as usual.
those at the top end fully protected themselves long before it went tits up.
those who caused the tits up are now receiving bonuses for not losing as much money as they did..
those working people in the middle who continued to work, pay tax and try to carry on during the 'tits up' are clearly the ones to blame and therefore will be squeezed till there is fuck all left to eek out of them.
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jasonhand
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Post by jasonhand on Jul 11, 2014 13:20:31 GMT 1
And who will pay the price for the Post Office being sold for £1billion less than what its worth? Someone in the background has made some serious money I'd reckon here www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28250963 |
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Post by OldRastrickian on Jul 11, 2014 14:17:52 GMT 1
OldRastrican as per usual as soon as a debate about your favourite subject crops up . You start your spiel boring, boring, boring. I bet your single because nobody could live with your boring negative spin surely. I didn't start this thread.............made just three comments (incl. this) on it. You are clearly a bit of a thicko.....even sicko. |
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Post by gledholt terrier on Jul 11, 2014 14:52:59 GMT 1
Those complaining about unilateral changes to their public sector employment contracts should recognise that, when private companies go bust (as a great many do), staff's employment contracts disappear down the toilet. The British State is effectively bust. We are one of the most indebted nations on the planet......under this government of "cuts" and "austerity", the national debt will have doubled. The government's borrowing (to fund public expenditure) is now so excessive that, even at current low rates of interest, the interest bill is over £1 billion per week. We are living hopelessly beyond our means.....a half of all UK households now receive more in publicly-funded benefits than they pay in taxes. It is utter insanity......and one factor feeding that is an over-rewarded, top-heavy public sector. Under the last Labour government, public sector employment increased by 600,000 people......yet if you'd blinked, you'd have missed any significant improvement in the quality of services being offered. This government has driven some reduction in the number of public employees....but, surprise, surprise, the public sector offers far more generous redundancy terms than most of the private sector, so savings from a reduced number of salaries take a while to materialise. quote] Well if it is, we have been for 300 years, which is how long we have carried debt I think you are confusing debt with deficits - since our prime minister and Chancellor are prone to doing this (deliberately), it isn't surprising. They want you to equate global, interconnected macroeconomics with how you deal with your credit cards or household finances, conveniently leaving out the fact that, unlike Greece/Spain/Ireland, we are a fiat currency economy, able to react to circumstances by controlling our money supply (and, incidentally, allowing us to benefit from low levels of interest on debt). The problem with these idiots is that rather than providing stimulus - the only effective way of reducing deficits - they plough on with austerity. The growth, once it finally arrived, has been aneamic. The other lot would not tackle the other side of a stimulus strategy - ensuring that you don't blow all of the ensuing tax revenues on nonsense. That's why I don't vote. |
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Post by wasp on Jul 11, 2014 15:28:42 GMT 1
I fully support the strikes, and I don't work in the public sector. The real issue here is that we have a government that is almost completely from a public school background, who's primary concern is to safeguard the the top 2% of society to the detriment of the other 98%. This government talks pay freezes for nurses & teachers whilst allowing chief execs of NHS trusts to receive huge pay increases, quite often rewarding failure. In the private sector banks pay top bosses huge bonuses, again quite often for less than impressive results,whilst making huge redundancies to Lower level staff. Make no mistake this is a dangerous government that's using economic crisis to justify their policies. More worryingly normal working people who should feel a sense of kinship with the strikers are now actually starting to believe the demonising drivel that this government is trying to spin. A lot of that is political & I certainly don't want to argue politics with you, but I don't support the strikes. The reason I don't is that public sector workers have a benefit package that the rest of us can only dream of, yet many of them conveniently overlook that when they complain about being squeezed by the government. I've already talked about pensions in this thread so I won't go there again, apart from to say that pensions in the public sector are still massively better value than a personal pension, for the same level of contribution and that's both before and after retirement. Then there's the public sector sick pay package at 6 months full pay, 6 months half pay. Such benefits are generally not available to the masses in the private sector. If a 50 year old on £20,000 (for example) were buying that cover (through an insurance policy), it would cost around £100 per month. I was talking to someone the other week who's been off work due to stress for the last 4 months! Guess who he works for? I agree public sector workers are relatively poorly paid, but IMO their very generous benefits package makes up for that. What are these very generous benefits packages you speak of??? |
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jul 11, 2014 15:53:27 GMT 1
The problem is government waste. We are the 5th richest economy in the world, yet old ladies sit in their urine all day, it takes 6 weeks to see a foreign doctor and the roads are full of holes.
Somehow we are £1.3 trillion in debt...unwanted wars, miltary costs, 50% of hospital saff working in admin and 90% of Police time in the stations dealing with twitter trolls.
7% of medical equipment is stolen and sold on ebay! The welfare system needs CANCELLING and central government funding should be controlled by a non-political independent body.
I did not hae a pay rise in 15 years....i then had two about 10 years ago before being told my salary had to fall 10% overnight or i was out of a job!
Firemen have it easy...i should know, i worked as a part-time one.
They are overpaid compared to most of the country.
Lets have real jobs instead of these Guardian non-jobs such as "GLBT co-ordinator for Somali women".
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betsvigi9
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Post by betsvigi9 on Jul 11, 2014 16:36:31 GMT 1
I am truly staggered at the number of private sector workers who seem to hate public sector workers That is because they have swallowed the divide and rule b*llocks that has been being pedalled by the goverment's propaganda machine for the last 4 years. Young against old, private sector against the public sector, everyone against immigrants, including other immigrants. It's a great way or occupying the unwashed masses whilst a tiny minority at the top cream off more and more to hide away in another tax haven. |
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betsvigi9
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Post by betsvigi9 on Jul 11, 2014 16:42:55 GMT 1
And who will pay the price for the Post Office being sold for £1billion less than what its worth? Someone in the background has made some serious money I'd reckon here www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28250963Well, if the people who are advising what price to sell the shares for are being paid in free shares for their services, then it makes perfect sense for them to value you them at a lot less than they are really worth. This country is truly being run by idiots. |
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rocky
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Post by rocky on Jul 11, 2014 17:07:09 GMT 1
A lot of that is political & I certainly don't want to argue politics with you, but I don't support the strikes. The reason I don't is that public sector workers have a benefit package that the rest of us can only dream of, yet many of them conveniently overlook that when they complain about being squeezed by the government. I've already talked about pensions in this thread so I won't go there again, apart from to say that pensions in the public sector are still massively better value than a personal pension, for the same level of contribution and that's both before and after retirement. Then there's the public sector sick pay package at 6 months full pay, 6 months half pay. Such benefits are generally not available to the masses in the private sector. If a 50 year old on £20,000 (for example) were buying that cover (through an insurance policy), it would cost around £100 per month. I was talking to someone the other week who's been off work due to stress for the last 4 months! Guess who he works for? I agree public sector workers are relatively poorly paid, but IMO their very generous benefits package makes up for that. What are these very generous benefits packages you speak of??? I've already said. Pension benefits significantly better than those available in a personal pension (for the same contribution levels) & that's before the employer contributions are taken into account. Death in service, dependents pensions, escalating income in retirement etc. etc. Sick pay benefit of 6 months full pay & 6 months half. |
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Post by terracesider on Jul 11, 2014 17:39:15 GMT 1
Interesting thread: Plenty of reasoned debate and rational discussion - not sure what it's doing on the main board of a Town M.B. but there you go.... As a retired private sector worker (I didn't realise until this last few minutes that there is such a chasm between my former colleagues and those who have to earn a crust in the "public sector) the obvious question running through my mind is: How do so many folk - considering that most of the contributions were made to the thread much earlier in the day - have time during a busy working day to be able to write long erudite pieces in some cases amounting to mini dissertations??? Just a thought.... Shifts. Same reason I've just got home whilst you've probably been scratching your arse on the sofa for 5 hours ;-) Ouch! I see you've got a CCTV camera in our front room  Now then; which shall it be? 1) Test match 2) Golf 3) Tour de France Problems problems --- best be careful not to get a corn on my finger from the remote....  to all the workers (especially the ones labouring away on SHIFTS) who don't have a minute to scratch their fundamental orifice |
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Post by brighousebandbred on Jul 11, 2014 18:14:55 GMT 1
Lol got ya, go back to your empty house you boring person.
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Post by wasp on Jul 11, 2014 18:21:04 GMT 1
What are these very generous benefits packages you speak of??? I've already said. Pension benefits significantly better than those available in a personal pension (for the same contribution levels) & that's before the employer contributions are taken into account. Death in service, dependents pensions, escalating income in retirement etc. etc. Sick pay benefit of 6 months full pay & 6 months half. Jealousy will get you nowhere |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 18:40:33 GMT 1
I've already said. Pension benefits significantly better than those available in a personal pension (for the same contribution levels) & that's before the employer contributions are taken into account. Death in service, dependents pensions, escalating income in retirement etc. etc. Sick pay benefit of 6 months full pay & 6 months half. Jealousy will get you nowhere I seriously doubt there are many folk in the private sector paying £400 a month into a pension on a £28k a year salary |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Jul 11, 2014 18:56:04 GMT 1
What are these very generous benefits packages you speak of??? I've already said. Pension benefits significantly better than those available in a personal pension (for the same contribution levels) & that's before the employer contributions are taken into account. Death in service, dependents pensions, escalating income in retirement etc. etc. Sick pay benefit of 6 months full pay & 6 months half.That's of the things the government are trying to get rid off Rocky to be fair.....twats. I had an operation last September and took some time off work sick to recover, not particularly long granted, 3 weeks, but if I hadn't been paid, I simply wouldn't have been able to pay the mortgage. The cost to cover my income privately would be outrageous and unaffordable and there is no guarantee that I even could get any cover in the first place. I fail to see how forcing hardship on the workforce is good for staff morale!! |
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Post by thrice on Jul 11, 2014 21:29:53 GMT 1
I'll defend & support anyone's right to strike over fair pay & conditions but these public sector strikes seem all about maintaining privileged conditions to me. You should negotiate to maintain privileged conditions & not resort to withdrawing your labour with such apparent ease. You are being led a merry dance by your unions.
Is it any wonder that those in the private sector cannot support your actions when they have been subjected to redundancies, pay cuts & real deterioration in conditions in these recent times.
Good luck to you, but don't expect everyone to rally to your cause.
The folk striking don't even appear to have their heart in it.
Tens & hundreds of thousands on strike but where were the massed pickets?
That tells me all I need to know about the conviction of the strikers.
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Post by barnsleydaz on Jul 11, 2014 21:33:37 GMT 1
I'll defend & support anyone's right to strike over fair pay & conditions but these public sector strikes seem all about maintaining privileged conditions to me. You should negotiate to maintain privileged conditions & not resort to withdrawing your labour with such apparent ease. You are being led a merry dance by your unions. Is it any wonder that those in the private sector cannot support your actions when they have been subjected to redundancies, pay cuts & real deterioration in conditions in these recent times. Good luck to you, but don't expect everyone to rally to your cause. The folk striking don't even appear to have their heart in it. Tens & hundreds of thousands on strike but where were the massed pickets? That tells me all I need to know about the conviction of the strikers. Very well put, and I agree completely. |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Jul 11, 2014 21:35:25 GMT 1
I'll defend & support anyone's right to strike over fair pay & conditions but these public sector strikes seem all about maintaining privileged conditions to me. You should negotiate to maintain privileged conditions & not resort to withdrawing your labour with such apparent ease. You are being led a merry dance by your unions. Is it any wonder that those in the private sector cannot support your actions when they have been subjected to redundancies, pay cuts & real deterioration in conditions in these recent times.
Good luck to you, but don't expect everyone to rally to your cause. The folk striking don't even appear to have their heart in it. Tens & hundreds of thousands on strike but where were the massed pickets? That tells me all I need to know about the conviction of the strikers. That's what the strikes are about, its the same for workers in the public sector, we are subject to the same issues, not sure what you are getting at there. |
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Post by thrice on Jul 11, 2014 21:39:21 GMT 1
I'll defend & support anyone's right to strike over fair pay & conditions but these public sector strikes seem all about maintaining privileged conditions to me. You should negotiate to maintain privileged conditions & not resort to withdrawing your labour with such apparent ease. You are being led a merry dance by your unions. Is it any wonder that those in the private sector cannot support your actions when they have been subjected to redundancies, pay cuts & real deterioration in conditions in these recent times.
Good luck to you, but don't expect everyone to rally to your cause. The folk striking don't even appear to have their heart in it. Tens & hundreds of thousands on strike but where were the massed pickets? That tells me all I need to know about the conviction of the strikers. That's what the strikes are about, its the same for workers in the public sector, we are subject to the same issues, not sure what you are getting at there. Chalk & cheese conditions. No pay increases V Pay cuts Pension Modifications V Pension Payment Suspensions Etc etc |
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Post by Headless Chicken on Jul 11, 2014 21:47:32 GMT 1
What are these very generous benefits packages you speak of??? I've already said. Pension benefits significantly better than those available in a personal pension (for the same contribution levels) & that's before the employer contributions are taken into account. Death in service, dependents pensions, escalating income in retirement etc. etc. Sick pay benefit of 6 months full pay & 6 months half. Some people in the public sector treat sick days as a statutory holiday; taking them even when they're not bloody sick. Happens in the private sector too, just far less companies will be tolerant of this piss taking and lack of pride. There is so much waste in some areas of the public sector, but there are also jobs where people put their health at risk (e.g. police and firemen) and they also employ people with special needs who wouldn't ordinarily get a job. Overall, we need to be a little bit more tolerant of the public sector, but those in the pubic sector who have not worked private, also need to realise many of them have one hell of a cushy number. |
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) writing cr*p on FOOTBALL message boards...
to all the workers (especially the ones labouring away on SHIFTS) who don't have a minute to scratch their fundamental orifice
