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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Jul 11, 2014 21:52:09 GMT 1
There's a wider picture to be looked at here. This government cut the top rate of tax which cost roughly 3-4 Bn a year, as tax cuts are really government spending. The question is where does this money go? Is it re-cycled back into the wider economy as believers in 'trickle-down' economics would state or has it simply been put into savings schemes or sent off-shore? All evidence points to it being the latter. If this money was instead spread out in terms of pay-rises to the middle-classes (for want of a better description) this would be much more likely to be spent, therefore stimulating demand and more economic activity. The danger is that the real economic drivers of economies are being slowly starved of the ability to create demand. This will cause immense damage in the long-term if it continues. Even Henry Ford worked out you need to pay people well otherwise there will be no-one to buy your products. It's about time we re-learnt this and stopped this race to the bottom. What they failed to tell you in that respect is that they lowered the threshold for 40% tax so that more people would fall into this bracket quicker. |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Jul 11, 2014 21:54:35 GMT 1
I've already said. Pension benefits significantly better than those available in a personal pension (for the same contribution levels) & that's before the employer contributions are taken into account. Death in service, dependents pensions, escalating income in retirement etc. etc. Sick pay benefit of 6 months full pay & 6 months half. Some people in the public sector treat sick days as a statutory holiday; taking them even when they're not bloody sick. Happens in the private sector too, just far less companies will be tolerant of this piss taking and lack of pride. There is so much waste in some areas of the public sector, but there are also jobs where people put their health at risk (e.g. police and firemen) and they also employ people with special needs who wouldn't ordinarily get a job. Overall, we need to be a little bit more tolerant of the public sector, but those in the pubic sector who have not worked private, also need to realise many of them have one hell of a cushy number.You make it sound as we sit around tossing it off all day, we do actually work you know. |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Jul 11, 2014 21:59:24 GMT 1
Some right nonsense being talked here.. Public services are being squeezed. People are losing their jobs. Working for less pay. Being told to do more and more and more to the point that its getting dangerous.. Why people are turning on each other on here god knows. We are all workers, most of us are getting shat on from a great height.
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Post by barnsleydaz on Jul 11, 2014 22:05:28 GMT 1
Some right nonsense being talked here.. Public services are being squeezed. People are losing their jobs. Working for less pay. Being told to do more and more and more to the point that its getting dangerous.. Why people are turning on each other on here god knows. We are all workers, most of us are getting shat on from a great height. I think the point is it's not just happening to public sector workers but they are the only ones constantly crying the poor tail. Public sector worker + no pay rise = Strike Private sector worker + no pay rise = work harder, become more competitive, find a better company that will pay you more. |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Jul 11, 2014 22:08:23 GMT 1
Some right nonsense being talked here.. Public services are being squeezed. People are losing their jobs. Working for less pay. Being told to do more and more and more to the point that its getting dangerous.. Why people are turning on each other on here god knows. We are all workers, most of us are getting shat on from a great height. What I think it boils down to Ted is, jealousy, I genuinely think some private sector workers are actually quite jealous of the 'benefits' (I use the term loosely as they are being quickly eroded) we have, most of the benefits we have are in exchange for lower pay anyway, something which they can't or won't grasp. |
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Post by Headless Chicken on Jul 11, 2014 22:08:38 GMT 1
Some people in the public sector treat sick days as a statutory holiday; taking them even when they're not bloody sick. Happens in the private sector too, just far less companies will be tolerant of this piss taking and lack of pride. There is so much waste in some areas of the public sector, but there are also jobs where people put their health at risk (e.g. police and firemen) and they also employ people with special needs who wouldn't ordinarily get a job. Overall, we need to be a little bit more tolerant of the public sector, but those in the pubic sector who have not worked private, also need to realise many of them have one hell of a cushy number.You make it sound as we sit around tossing it off all day, we do actually work you know. I don't think everyone tossers it off, I've heard some women who work at the council knit in the afternoon  I'm the only one in my family who works private and fully appreciate my brother gets a job at Dewsbury hospital, which a private company probably wouldn't support. I'm grateful for this. Just on the flip side, certain conditions aren't remotely comparable, such as pension benefits, overtime (or lack of being paid it, even at low salary levels in the private sector) and management of absence. I don't think people who have only worked public realise this. You can't tarnish everyone with the same brush, but many of the steroetypes have a foundation. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 22:20:10 GMT 1
Fire men on strike again.... when do they ever not strike? Teachers moaning... If I don't like my terms and conditions I will get another job, I suggest you moaning shits either do the same or be glad you are working. Not all teachers are moaning and the NUT is not a true representation of teachers' views. I have worked in industry, finance, the NHS and in education and teachers work far harder than any of the other aforementioned. Most teachers work an 80 hour week if they do the job properly and are being asked to do even more. Those taht have a cosy 9-5 have no idea of what is being debated........................ and don't come back with the holiday arguement as four and a half of my six weeks in the summer are already accounted for! |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Jul 11, 2014 22:24:12 GMT 1
Some right nonsense being talked here.. Public services are being squeezed. People are losing their jobs. Working for less pay. Being told to do more and more and more to the point that its getting dangerous.. Why people are turning on each other on here god knows. We are all workers, most of us are getting shat on from a great height. I think the point is it's not just happening to public sector workers but they are the only ones constantly crying the poor tail. Public sector worker + no pay rise = Strike Private sector worker + no pay rise = work harder, become more competitive, find a better company that will pay you more. To a teacher what does "competitive" look like? To a nurse what does "competitive" look like? To a social worker what does "competitive" look like? To a fireman what does "competitive" look like? Its the introduction of these notions into such professions which are rendering the poor bastards impotent and ineffective.. What the hell is going on with our schools? I'll tell you what lad I remember the days of ONE railway ONE gas provider, ONE electricity provider... Do you know what ? they were all miles and miles cheaper!!! We are all paying through the nose as a result of this "competition" |
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Post by thrice on Jul 11, 2014 22:32:00 GMT 1
Some right nonsense being talked here.. Public services are being squeezed. People are losing their jobs. Working for less pay. Being told to do more and more and more to the point that its getting dangerous.. Why people are turning on each other on here god knows. We are all workers, most of us are getting shat on from a great height. What I think it boils down to Ted is, jealousy, I genuinely think some private sector workers are actually quite jealous of the 'benefits' (I use the term loosely as they are being quickly eroded) we have, most of the benefits we have are in exchange for lower pay anyway, something which they can't or won't grasp. Don't kid yourself that the public are not rallying to your cause because of jealousy, although that it not to say that will not be a factor. Folk with less pay & far worse conditions are bearing it after all. The fact that you even raise the issue of jealousy highlights the lunacy of the strikes to me. You were never going to enjoy public support striking over these issues, especially in these time. Did you ever believe otherwise or were you told otherwise? |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Jul 11, 2014 22:36:27 GMT 1
What I think it boils down to Ted is, jealousy, I genuinely think some private sector workers are actually quite jealous of the 'benefits' (I use the term loosely as they are being quickly eroded) we have, most of the benefits we have are in exchange for lower pay anyway, something which they can't or won't grasp. Don't kid yourself that the public are not rallying to your cause because of jealousy, although that it not to say that will not be a factor. Folk with less pay & far worse conditions are bearing it after all. The fact that you even raise the issue of jealousy highlights the lunacy of the strikes to me. You were never going to enjoy public support striking over these issues, especially in these time. Did you ever believe otherwise or were you told otherwise? I'm not on strike, never striked in my life, no one in the NHS have been on strike, well not that I'm aware of anyway, although I get the feeling there could well be some industrial action planned for the coming weeks. As I said I won't be striking though. |
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Post by barnsleydaz on Jul 11, 2014 22:39:34 GMT 1
I think the point is it's not just happening to public sector workers but they are the only ones constantly crying the poor tail. Public sector worker + no pay rise = Strike Private sector worker + no pay rise = work harder, become more competitive, find a better company that will pay you more. To a teacher what does "competitive" look like? To a nurse what does "competitive" look like? To a social worker what does "competitive" look like? To a fireman what does "competitive" look like? Its the introduction of these notions into such professions which are rendering the poor bastards impotent and ineffective.. What the hell is going on with our schools? I'll tell you what lad I remember the days of ONE railway ONE gas provider, ONE electricity provider... Do you know what ? they were all miles and miles cheaper!!! We are all paying through the nose as a result of this "competition" Progress Ted, progress. We all have more productive and affluent life styles now than 20 years ago. When we first set out on our journey of life both me an my lovely wife had no choice but to work 2 jobs each and still struggling to meet our basic outgoings. No minimum wage in those days, and a pay rise, your fucking joking, they didn't exist. You were lucky to have a job. I have never been on strike and I never will, If I don't like the way things are, I move. Even re qualify if required, which I did when I was 35 before you ask. Dinosaurs Ted, Keep up or die out, its that simple. A lot of what you post Ted I tend to agree with, but on this subject I'm afraid you seem to be a bit institutionalised. No offence intended, just my view. |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Jul 11, 2014 22:40:37 GMT 1
Some right nonsense being talked here.. Public services are being squeezed. People are losing their jobs. Working for less pay. Being told to do more and more and more to the point that its getting dangerous.. Why people are turning on each other on here god knows. We are all workers, most of us are getting shat on from a great height. I think the point is it's not just happening to public sector workers but they are the only ones constantly crying the poor tail. Public sector worker + no pay rise = StrikePrivate sector worker + no pay rise = work harder, become more competitive, find a better company that will pay you more. You do realise that most public sector workers pay is set by national conditions, therefore if you're a nurse whatever NHS Trust you work for your pay will be the same? |
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Post by barnsleydaz on Jul 11, 2014 22:45:40 GMT 1
I think the point is it's not just happening to public sector workers but they are the only ones constantly crying the poor tail. Public sector worker + no pay rise = StrikePrivate sector worker + no pay rise = work harder, become more competitive, find a better company that will pay you more. You do realise that most public sector workers pay is set by national conditions, therefore if you're a nurse whatever NHS Trust you work for your pay will be the same? Sorry, I didn't choose your career for you. I think that was you. |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Jul 11, 2014 22:54:05 GMT 1
To a teacher what does "competitive" look like? To a nurse what does "competitive" look like? To a social worker what does "competitive" look like? To a fireman what does "competitive" look like? Its the introduction of these notions into such professions which are rendering the poor bastards impotent and ineffective.. What the hell is going on with our schools? I'll tell you what lad I remember the days of ONE railway ONE gas provider, ONE electricity provider... Do you know what ? they were all miles and miles cheaper!!! We are all paying through the nose as a result of this "competition" Progress Ted, progress. We all have more productive and affluent life styles now than 20 years ago. When we first set out on our journey of life both me an my lovely wife had no choice but to work 2 jobs each and still struggling to meet our basic outgoings. No minimum wage in those days, and a pay rise, your fucking joking, they didn't exist. You were lucky to have a job. I have never been on strike and I never will, If I don't like the way things are, I move. Even re qualify if required, which I did when I was 35 before you ask. Dinosaurs Ted, Keep up or die out, its that simple. A lot of what you post Ted I tend to agree with, but on this subject I'm afraid you seem to be a bit institutionalised. No offence intended, just my view. No offence taken, as I have no idea what you are talking about. "Progress" "Dinosaurs" "institutionalised" ... These terms mean nothing to me in this context they are just rhetoric. If you think, for example, that selling off the Royal Mail for one billion pounds less than its worth is progress then great. If you think everyone having bills which have risen 1000s of per cent and go straight into the coffers of huge institutional "shareholders" is progress then great. If you think its progress that young lads kicking a football about earn more in a weekend than a nurse earns in a year then great. If you think that its progress that teaching kids well, with flair, creativity and imagination, is now secondary in importance to meeting government stats and criteria then great. You get the society that you deserve. |
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Post by barnsleydaz on Jul 11, 2014 23:04:41 GMT 1
Progress Ted, progress. We all have more productive and affluent life styles now than 20 years ago. When we first set out on our journey of life both me an my lovely wife had no choice but to work 2 jobs each and still struggling to meet our basic outgoings. No minimum wage in those days, and a pay rise, your fucking joking, they didn't exist. You were lucky to have a job. I have never been on strike and I never will, If I don't like the way things are, I move. Even re qualify if required, which I did when I was 35 before you ask. Dinosaurs Ted, Keep up or die out, its that simple. A lot of what you post Ted I tend to agree with, but on this subject I'm afraid you seem to be a bit institutionalised. No offence intended, just my view. No offence taken, as I have no idea what you are talking about. "Progress" "Dinosaurs" "institutionalised" ... These terms mean nothing to me in this context they are just rhetoric. If you think, for example, that selling off the Royal Mail for one billion pounds less than its worth is progress then great. If you think everyone having bills which have risen 1000s of per cent and go straight into the coffers of huge institutional "shareholders" is progress then great. If you think its progress that young lads kicking a football about earn more in a weekend than a nurse earns in a year then great. If you think that its progress that teaching kids well, with flair, creativity and imagination, is now secondary in importance to meeting government stats and criteria then great. You get the society that you deserve. Don't hate the player, I didn't make the rules Ted. I just do the best for me and mine. Like everyone else. There are lots of things I hate about our society but I just get on with it and make the best of what I have. If its not enough I work harder. |
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Post by terrierpark on Jul 12, 2014 0:00:40 GMT 1
You do realise that most public sector workers pay is set by national conditions, therefore if you're a nurse whatever NHS Trust you work for your pay will be the same? Sorry, I didn't choose your career for you. I think that was you. and there you have it the age old attitude of those well off in relation to the poor. Thank god we have public sector workers like nurses who chose that career and social workers and fire men because i tell you this once there all privatised they will still be just as poor at the service they deliver as they are now but we will all pay more for it! How do you expect people doing physical and at the same time mentally stressful jobs like nurses to work til they are 70, because all their pension money as gone. Yes gone on le tour, the olympics the immigrants the fecking earthquake in papa new guinea and the continued spending in london and the south. The scotts have the right idea as did guy fawkes. |
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Post by htafcjack on Jul 12, 2014 3:19:46 GMT 1
Hmmm Government froze pay for the last 4 years, with another 4 years pay freeze being suggested by the Tories. I wonder how many private sectors workers wouldn't be cheesed off with 8 years of pay freezes whilst the cost of living increases year on year. There is a deficit to pay for but it seems that the easy targets are the public sector workers. And now talk of banning strike action if certain parameters aren't met by the voting, which strangely is much more than was needed for any of the Tory ministers to got elected at the last election. But hey easy targets and all that. Not many teaching or firefighting jobs are available in the private sector. I seriously hope you don't find yourself in a burning building one day and reliant on these said T**ts to save your life  I seriously hope you don't find yourself in a burning building one day and reliant on these said T**ts to save your life There is more chance of a poorly educated working class lad getting shot at for £300 quid a week, who would not dream of going on strike, fighting in a war that he knows f8Uk all about. There is statistically more chance of me being kicked to death by a donkey than having my life saved by a fireman, that's a fact, (if they are not striking that day). Or begging for money in the main road. If you're not I apologise, and if someone has already said this again, I apologise, but are you saying that all the people who join the infantry are poorly educated? Because my brother, an infantry soldier that has been on tour in Afghan, isnt poorly educated or an idiot as that statement eludes to. |
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Post by DeepSpace on Jul 12, 2014 7:53:26 GMT 1
I haven't really had time to properly read this thread so apologies if this is mentioned elsewhere but I think I'm in a reasonable position here to weigh up some of these issues. I work for a charity, so as an organisation we have to be efficient, profitable & innovative or else we go out of business. However staff in the sector are paid as a rule on NJC (Local Govt.) pay scales, so I know that compared to people of a similar skill set in other sectors, pay in particular is low but people accept that because they (often in any case) believe that public service & trying to make society better is something worth doing.
However my main reason for posting here is that in reality significant bits of the public sector are being privatised under people's noses & without most people understanding the implication. The Probation Service has just had around 70% of its work carved off into what are called "Community Rehabilitation Companies" which will be sold off before much longer. This means private companies will run most services to offenders (other than the very highest risk). They make money through Payment by Results, in other words for every offender that doesn't re-offend they get paid. Which is fine until you query what happens to those who do re-offend? In effect they become non-paying customers & what business chooses to work for nothing?
Extrapolate that to Children's Services, older people services, care leaver services, mental health services & so on & so forth & you quickly see that by stealth we end up with a society in which to get help you either have to pay for it yourself or meet an eligibility criteria which is fundamentally about whether or not it is profitable to work with you.
No doubt that's a libertarian paradise some might like, but I think that our society is as fair as it is through a principle that help goes to people who need it.
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Post by NicMcTerrier on Jul 12, 2014 7:57:49 GMT 1
I've found this thread absolutely fascinating.
There's an awful lot of 'grass is always greener on the other side' in people's attitudes. And yet most people do not want to swap from one to the other. Why do nurses and firemen not become office workers? It's not just about money, it's about who they are. They can't swap caring about people to just caring about money. Doing a job that didn't use their skills would destroy them.
Why do those in the private sector not join the public sector? There are plenty of jobs that don't require specific vocation training.If the benefits packages are so much better I would expect more would be queuing up to do this. Given the perceptions on this thread I don't understand this.
Personally, I work in the public sector - in the lowest of the low - the prison service. I would never strike but when I see what the uniformed officers do, the skills they have and what they have to put up with I wouldn't blame them for doing so. They are paid peanuts and are being asked for more and more constantly for less and less. They are running more risks and suffering more stress than ever before.
I've been involved in schools as a governor and know how dedicated they are and how hard they work.
My husband for most of his life has worked in the private sector and I know how hard he works too - an 80 hour week is not unusual for him.
We are all working hard. Let's just be glad that there are people willing to empty our bins, teach our children, care for us when we are sick and keep the wheels of industry turning to pay for it for all of us.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 8:26:42 GMT 1
Wife work's in the private sector and she's had 4 years of no pay increase. In fact 2 year's ago the company had to cut the wage bill across the board by 10%. She just got on with it. Having worked in the public sector for 23 years, I never realised how lucky I was. Same here. At the height of the recession we agreed to a 20% pay cut to keep our company going. We only got back up to our previous salaries when we were taken over by a Canadian company last year. To say that private sector workers don't know what it is like to have pay freezes/cuts is ill informed and lazy bullshit. Absolutely space hardware. The care sector I work in is one the largest employers and is one of, if not the lowest paid. Pay increases almost exclusively in line with minimum wage. After several years of public sector & NHs wage freezes, their private sector counter parts are still paid less and have worse employment rights and conditions. Still, today some people think private sector is bankers, and businessmen. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 8:32:49 GMT 1
Private sector workers had 10% tax relief taken off their pensions by Gordon Brown 15+ years ago. That's 10% relief every year, compounded, and wasn't in the contract when I started my pension. When I started working, I could pay enough contributions for a comfortable retirement at 65. Now, I can't, because the government has changed the rules - my pension pot is much less and retirement age is up to 68. A lot of public sector workers think they're the only ones whose rules are changing. They're wrong. I believe everyone has a right to industrial action in both the public and private sector it really doesn't matter which sector you are in everyone just wants a decent days pay for a decent days work but I find folk complaining about people when they do try and take action for their particular grievance its whinge whinge whinge from the ill informed. Why is Dsr I'll informed doc? He's quite right in his post above. I appreciate your point about industrial action but the reality is private sector employees almost exclusively so not have the means to strike... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 8:46:51 GMT 1
Hmmm Government froze pay for the last 4 years, with another 4 years pay freeze being suggested by the Tories. I wonder how many private sectors workers wouldn't be cheesed off with 8 years of pay freezes whilst the cost of living increases year on year. There is a deficit to pay for but it seems that the easy targets are the public sector workers. And now talk of banning strike action if certain parameters aren't met by the voting, which strangely is much more than was needed for any of the Tory ministers to got elected at the last election. But hey easy targets and all that. Not many teaching or firefighting jobs are available in the private sector. I seriously hope you don't find yourself in a burning building one day and reliant on these said T**ts to save your life Stats on Sky News shows public sector pay rose by 17 per cent over the last 7 years, whilst private sector pay rose by 13 per cent. With respect this is a very unhelpful stat. It doesn't take into account different sectors of employment. Public sector jobs include smaller numbers in high paid positions than in private sector. For example, high paid professionals in the private sector may have had salary increases but large numbers of low paid private sector works haven't. The 13% is hugely distorted by bankers salary rises etc. What needs to be compared are equal sectors in private and public e.g. Teachers in state schools and teachers in private schools or health care assistants in NHS & those within private care homes. The latter sector I can tell you the % increase is 0 for both; wage freeze and minimum wage. NHS still out earn private sector but by less of a margin than 10 years ago. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 9:20:06 GMT 1
No problem with anybody striking for their cause, however, Picket Lines should be outlawed.
They are nothing more than an opportunity to bully people into not going to work. There'll be loads of public sector workers who are a days wage short next month, some of them, perhaps those on low pay, will probably give a good deal of worry as to how they will make ends meet and pay the bills.
When the socialists and liberal minded are continually campaigning for equal rights and riddance of discrimination (rightly so), why do a lot of them then take up a position where they intimidate people into losing a much valued days wages?
I saw one guy on facebook comparing standing together on the picket line with standing together in the trenches in the two world wars, he even mentioned how those that tried to run were shot in the head! He's a proud union man, socialist, and also an idiot at times as far as I can tell.
A lot of you will know him as well.
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Post by BLUE&WHITE on Jul 12, 2014 9:41:33 GMT 1
I've found this thread absolutely fascinating. There's an awful lot of 'grass is always greener on the other side' in people's attitudes. And yet most people do not want to swap from one to the other. Why do nurses and firemen not become office workers? It's not just about money, it's about who they are. They can't swap caring about people to just caring about money. Doing a job that didn't use their skills would destroy them. Why do those in the private sector not join the public sector? There are plenty of jobs that don't require specific vocation training.If the benefits packages are so much better I would expect more would be queuing up to do this. Given the perceptions on this thread I don't understand this. Personally, I work in the public sector - in the lowest of the low - the prison service. I would never strike but when I see what the uniformed officers do, the skills they have and what they have to put up with I wouldn't blame them for doing so. They are paid peanuts and are being asked for more and more constantly for less and less. They are running more risks and suffering more stress than ever before. I've been involved in schools as a governor and know how dedicated they are and how hard they work. My husband for most of his life has worked in the private sector and I know how hard he works too - an 80 hour week is not unusual for him. We are all working hard. Let's just be glad that there are people willing to empty our bins, teach our children, care for us when we are sick and keep the wheels of industry turning to pay for it for all of us. Best post on here |
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Post by wasp on Jul 12, 2014 9:55:22 GMT 1
I'll defend & support anyone's right to strike over fair pay & conditions but these public sector strikes seem all about maintaining privileged conditions to me. You should negotiate to maintain privileged conditions & not resort to withdrawing your labour with such apparent ease. You are being led a merry dance by your unions. Is it any wonder that those in the private sector cannot support your actions when they have been subjected to redundancies, pay cuts & real deterioration in conditions in these recent times. Good luck to you, but don't expect everyone to rally to your cause. The folk striking don't even appear to have their heart in it. Tens & hundreds of thousands on strike but where were the massed pickets? That tells me all I need to know about the conviction of the strikers. Why is wanting a decent pay rise a privilege ? I'm 20% down and had my workload doubled |
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Jul 12, 2014 9:57:02 GMT 1
There's a wider picture to be looked at here. This government cut the top rate of tax which cost roughly 3-4 Bn a year, as tax cuts are really government spending. The question is where does this money go? Is it re-cycled back into the wider economy as believers in 'trickle-down' economics would state or has it simply been put into savings schemes or sent off-shore? All evidence points to it being the latter. If this money was instead spread out in terms of pay-rises to the middle-classes (for want of a better description) this would be much more likely to be spent, therefore stimulating demand and more economic activity. The danger is that the real economic drivers of economies are being slowly starved of the ability to create demand. This will cause immense damage in the long-term if it continues. Even Henry Ford worked out you need to pay people well otherwise there will be no-one to buy your products. It's about time we re-learnt this and stopped this race to the bottom. Thank goodness. I pay enough tax as it is!  |
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Post by griffa on Jul 12, 2014 10:11:17 GMT 1
So the world wide banking crash was all down to Gordon Brown!
Typical Tory tactics - divide & rule same old, same old.
Meanwhile the Government (full of millionaires), gives a tax reduction to millionaires!
It's a funny old world!
But don't worry "We're all in it together."
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Jul 12, 2014 10:16:40 GMT 1
We'd all like to get paid more but as I said before who funds it?
The is no money left in the public sector and if people in that area don't like that reality they really ought to consider moving jobs /retraining because it will be this way for years maybe decades.
There is no easy solution. If the public sector where a business it would be insolvent and bankrupt. It has been mismanaged for decades
There are no ways to increase revenue to fund pay rises
Individual tax rises?
It's mid July and I won't have earned a penny yet in 2014 once you factor in tax for PAYE, NICS, council tax, 20% VAT plus higher levy on petrol (I spend c.£50 a week driving to work). At some point I then need to save for my own retirement as well!
Simply the UK public are taxed enough and there's little more left to tax here. We are one of the most heavily taxed countries in the world
Tax big business and risk them laying off private sector workers to save cost or in extreme cases moving offshore (there is a reason places like Gibraltar are booming) Or watch the company pass the extra costs onto end customers in higher prices - so we end up paying
Or recognise that despite borrowing billions annually to fund public spending and taxing about 35% of GDP -one of the highest in world - the public sector needs to make the decisions done in the private sector
It's not like the option is a across the board pay cut or a reduction of the workforce (redundancies) as happened in the private sector. BTW I didn't see public sector unions striking when that was common place in the private sector. No divide and conquer by the elite the public sector unions only care when it affects them - not sure why they are surprised that private sector employees show similar apathy to their strike
I get that teachers, nurse and soldiers deserve more but other civil servants really are doing okay IMO.
There are ways to fund pay rises IMO get rid of unnecessary roles (eg marketing), streamline (eg finance,HR) or pay less (eg legal aid bill). That's before the obvious waste we all see daily in procurement and logistics, eg roads being dug up one week and again a month later . Also there is a lot of deadwood in the public sector, I had some great teachers but also some horrific ones and they should get the boot like they would in the private sector for underperformance (also reduce teacher paperwork, give them more authority in the classroom and instantly moral would rise there)
Point is public sector largely does a good job but they need to modernise. Cut the waste/ unnecessary functions, consolidate other departments and recognise that you can't keep spending more money than is taken in tax - otherwise your kids foot the bill eventually
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Post by Rigodon on Jul 12, 2014 10:18:17 GMT 1
I'll defend & support anyone's right to strike over fair pay & conditions but these public sector strikes seem all about maintaining privileged conditions to me. You should negotiate to maintain privileged conditions & not resort to withdrawing your labour with such apparent ease. You are being led a merry dance by your unions. Is it any wonder that those in the private sector cannot support your actions when they have been subjected to redundancies, pay cuts & real deterioration in conditions in these recent times. Good luck to you, but don't expect everyone to rally to your cause. The folk striking don't even appear to have their heart in it. Tens & hundreds of thousands on strike but where were the massed pickets? That tells me all I need to know about the conviction of the strikers. Why is wanting a decent pay rise a privilege ? I'm 20% down and had my workload doubled WASP, as a favour (for not telling me about that Swastika your brother inked on my forehead in 2000 whilst walking into town from his Greenhead park residence. Still have to check the mirror before I leave the house even if he's a 'responsible parent' these days haha) can you empty my black 'un while I'm on holiday? I PROMISE I WILL support your cause, bring you JD's and coke and letters of hilarity from the 'naughty scouser' whilst you are on the picket line. |
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Post by barnsleydaz on Jul 12, 2014 10:29:03 GMT 1
I've found this thread absolutely fascinating. There's an awful lot of 'grass is always greener on the other side' in people's attitudes. And yet most people do not want to swap from one to the other. Why do nurses and firemen not become office workers? It's not just about money, it's about who they are. They can't swap caring about people to just caring about money. Doing a job that didn't use their skills would destroy them. Why do those in the private sector not join the public sector? There are plenty of jobs that don't require specific vocation training.If the benefits packages are so much better I would expect more would be queuing up to do this. Given the perceptions on this thread I don't understand this. Personally, I work in the public sector - in the lowest of the low - the prison service. I would never strike but when I see what the uniformed officers do, the skills they have and what they have to put up with I wouldn't blame them for doing so. They are paid peanuts and are being asked for more and more constantly for less and less. They are running more risks and suffering more stress than ever before. I've been involved in schools as a governor and know how dedicated they are and how hard they work. My husband for most of his life has worked in the private sector and I know how hard he works too - an 80 hour week is not unusual for him. We are all working hard. Let's just be glad that there are people willing to empty our bins, teach our children, care for us when we are sick and keep the wheels of industry turning to pay for it for all of us. Good points, and I agree, we are all cogs in this great machine. Some larger than others and made of different material, but all important in the grand scheme. The problem is that a specific type of cog is doing a fair bit of whining. May be they are wearing out or may be its the material I don't know. I'll get my tin hat. |
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