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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 12:15:53 GMT 1
Anyone who follows David Conn can't help but have been moved by his coverage over the past 2 years. Mistakes can happen, bad calls in the heat of the moment can happen and, in the context of a public order operation at a match in the 80s (with the state the game was in) a horrendous series of mistakes were clearly made. The cover up that followed orchestrated by Thatcher and her boot boys (the government, the SYP, the right wing press) sought to smear the dead, ideologically destroy the 'working man's game', castigate the socialist North West and a city ruled by Hatton and Militant. That was unforgivable. May everybody involved - from those who created such a strategy to those who leaned on young PC's to collaborate statements - all go to hell. may those without tickets who turned up in the knowledge of previous games, that there might well be a shove towards 3pm and the gate may well be opened, also go to hell.. just a thought.. I personally know 5 leeds fans who did the same when leeds played coventry, they all got in free.. it was a 'laugh' and accepted practice, nobody meant to hurt anyone else etc etc.. The organisers of this yearly shove and incident waiting to happen will walk away unscathed, again..in fact they have been exhonarated..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 12:22:43 GMT 1
You can take this to the nth degree if you want, reasons as to why fencing was ever installed in football grounds etc. Fencing or not there would still have been fatalities that day & it would still have been the youngest stood at the very front...
People will try and play the Scouser angle here but this is a victory for society against the establishment who we pay to do the job right and to the best of their ability. Common sense tells you there will always be mistakes & you have to allow tolerances. Football fans were & still are, seen as a problem though, moreso back then & hence why policing was heavy handed and arguably tarred all fans with the same brush (i.e. hooligans). It would have been known there would have been a fair number of pissed up Liverpool fans. I'm sure Forest had a few that day, but their turnstiles had an entirely different aspect/control measures to Leppings Lane).
You also have to remember this is being judged in the modern day, but against events that took place in a totally different landscape. The establishment has a chequered past in terms of cover ups regarding blame, god forbid they'd ever see their reputations tarnished for incompetence...
For those that remember this event, they'll also remember the newspaper headlines & photo's at the time, truly horrific. Judged in the modern era it seems bizarre, almost cruel, to think that photographers were taking pictures of dead kids instead of doing something to try and help. Not suggesting they were all of that ilk & I'm sure they put down their cameras quickly when they realised the enormity of the tragedy.
At the end of the day, there are no winners or losers in all this, just victims & lessons that will have been learned (if not publicly)...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 12:26:11 GMT 1
i could never understand that if there were a cover-up (which there obviously was) how the people who instigated said cover up could live with themselves after that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 12:26:46 GMT 1
Anyone who follows David Conn can't help but have been moved by his coverage over the past 2 years. Mistakes can happen, bad calls in the heat of the moment can happen and, in the context of a public order operation at a match in the 80s (with the state the game was in) a horrendous series of mistakes were clearly made. The cover up that followed orchestrated by Thatcher and her boot boys (the government, the SYP, the right wing press) sought to smear the dead, ideologically destroy the 'working man's game', castigate the socialist North West and a city ruled by Hatton and Militant. That was unforgivable. May everybody involved - from those who created such a strategy to those who leaned on young PC's to collaborate statements - all go to hell. may those without tickets who turned up in the knowledge of previous games, that there might well be a shove towards 3pm and the gate may well be opened, also go to hell.. just a thought.. I personally know 5 leeds fans who did the same when leeds played coventry, they all got in free.. it was a 'laugh' and accepted practice, nobody meant to hurt anyone else etc etc.. The organisers of this yearly shove and incident waiting to happen will walk away unscathed, again..in fact they have been exhonarated.. I'm sure there's some validity in your point and I'm in no way looking for an argument. I would draw the distinction between those on the ground amidst the chaos and death to those strategising in the corridors of power into how to shift the blame.
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Post by Torquayterrier on Apr 26, 2016 12:27:44 GMT 1
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 12:32:16 GMT 1
You can take this to the nth degree if you want, reasons as to why fencing was ever installed in football grounds etc. Fencing or not there would still have been fatalities that day & it would still have been the youngest stood at the very front... People will try and play the Scouser angle here but this is a victory for society against the establishment who we pay to do the job right and to the best of their ability. Common sense tells you there will always be mistakes & you have to allow tolerances. Football fans were & still are, seen as a problem though, moreso back then & hence why policing was heavy handed and arguably tarred all fans with the same brush (i.e. hooligans). It would have been known there would have been a fair number of pissed up Liverpool fans. I'm sure Forest had a few that day, but their turnstiles had an entirely different aspect/control measures to Leppings Lane). You also have to remember this is being judged in the modern day, but against events that took place in a totally different landscape. The establishment has a chequered past in terms of cover ups regarding blame, god forbid they'd ever see their reputations tarnished for incompetence... For those that remember this event, they'll also remember the newspaper headlines & photo's at the time, truly horrific. Judged in the modern era it seems bizarre, almost cruel, to think that photographers were taking pictures of dead kids instead of doing something to try and help. Not suggesting they were all of that ilk & I'm sure they put down their cameras quickly when they realised the enormity of the tragedy. At the end of the day, there are no winners or losers in all this, just victims & lessons that will have been learned (if not publicly)... there are winners. those that ordered the cover up and those that organised this and other games with little or no concern for public safety. They will still be anonymous and unblemished, publicly..
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 12:38:46 GMT 1
may those without tickets who turned up in the knowledge of previous games, that there might well be a shove towards 3pm and the gate may well be opened, also go to hell.. just a thought.. I personally know 5 leeds fans who did the same when leeds played coventry, they all got in free.. it was a 'laugh' and accepted practice, nobody meant to hurt anyone else etc etc.. The organisers of this yearly shove and incident waiting to happen will walk away unscathed, again..in fact they have been exhonarated.. I'm sure there's some validity in your point and I'm in no way looking for an argument. I would draw the distinction between those on the ground amidst the chaos and death to those strategising in the corridors of power into how to shift the blame. I fully take your distinction. My mates got in without tickets, they shit themselves for the whole game because it was almost unbearable with the crowding and these were grown men. It happened before and nothing was done, because nothing tragic happened. Dealing with events after the fact became a national pastime and still is to some extent. Police dealing with large crowds is now seen as bully boy tactics..In a no win situation best take the newer 'options'? you will get a load of shit but nobody dies..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 12:40:57 GMT 1
Sadly Galph there will always be those type of winners... All the people can do is keep fighting against that sort of thing to make sure it continues to erode the skullduggery & malpractice that goes on...
We'll never have a truly transparent society & after so many yrs it proves the degree of tenacity you need to force justice...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 12:45:27 GMT 1
I'm sure there's some validity in your point and I'm in no way looking for an argument. I would draw the distinction between those on the ground amidst the chaos and death to those strategising in the corridors of power into how to shift the blame. I fully take your distinction. My mates got in without tickets, they shit themselves for the whole game because it was almost unbearable with the crowding and these were grown men. It happened before and nothing was done, because nothing tragic happened. Dealing with events after the fact became a national pastime and still is to some extent. Police dealing with large crowds is now seen as bully boy tactics..In a no win situation best take the newer 'options'? you will get a load of shit but nobody dies.. I agree. Any large crowd now is treated from a viewpoint of public safety, not public order. Kettling, cordoning and a huge police presence will always be justified as a requirement to maintain safety. Much the same as the transformation of stadia following the Taylor Report. People may think it's over the top but the alternatives were unjustifiable.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 12:51:10 GMT 1
Also agree that 'after the event' is the thing, too many tragedies that could have been prevented, or at least the impact reduced...
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 12:53:08 GMT 1
Sadly Galph there will always be those type of winners... All the people can do is keep fighting against that sort of thing to make sure it continues to erode the skullduggery & malpractice that goes on... We'll never have a truly transparent society & after so many yrs it proves the degree of tenacity you need to force justice... justice is not blaming a couple of policemen and a poorly done ground safety inspection, which in truth was probably the same one as was carried out at every football ground then. for at least 25 years nobody blamed the 96 or those at the front, as said before, I and many others never thought for a second they could be too blame, its a ludicrous statement. the blame on the day and the cover up ran too high and we are left with it all heaped on a few low level individuals..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 13:48:24 GMT 1
So in summary then, unlawfully killed means what? That the fans had absolutely nothing to do with crushing other fans, it was 100% the authorities to blame and as the deaths were unlawful, the no win no fee parasites will be setting up in Liverpool to sue the police?
It may well be the final outcome wanted by the campaigners, whether it's justice I don't know. Sounds more of a blame game somehow to remove any form of guilt on the fans side. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change anything other than blame and liability.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 13:55:55 GMT 1
So in summary then, unlawfully killed means what? That the fans had absolutely nothing to do with crushing other fans, it was 100% the authorities to blame and as the deaths were unlawful, the no win no fee parasites will be setting up in Liverpool to sue the police? It may well be the final outcome wanted by the campaigners, whether it's justice I don't know. Sounds more of a blame game somehow to remove any form of guilt on the fans side. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change anything other than blame and liability. its not about the money.. we will all pay for the liability because the liability is being placed at certain public services. The ground liability will be fought and won by the company that performed the safety inspections because they will cite a hundred others done in the same way at the same time. The FA walk away unscathed and the cover up on high remains intact and solid.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 14:24:05 GMT 1
So in summary then, unlawfully killed means what? That the fans had absolutely nothing to do with crushing other fans, it was 100% the authorities to blame and as the deaths were unlawful, the no win no fee parasites will be setting up in Liverpool to sue the police? It may well be the final outcome wanted by the campaigners, whether it's justice I don't know. Sounds more of a blame game somehow to remove any form of guilt on the fans side. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change anything other than blame and liability. Occasionally you need to think before you type Marcus. You post some incendiary comments on here at times but this is probably one of your most distasteful posts...
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Post by gledholt terrier on Apr 26, 2016 14:37:42 GMT 1
So in summary then, unlawfully killed means what? That the fans had absolutely nothing to do with crushing other fans, it was 100% the authorities to blame and as the deaths were unlawful, the no win no fee parasites will be setting up in Liverpool to sue the police? It may well be the final outcome wanted by the campaigners, whether it's justice I don't know. Sounds more of a blame game somehow to remove any form of guilt on the fans side. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change anything other than blame and liability. Occasionally you need to think before you type Marcus. You post some incendiary comments on here at times but this is probably one of your most distasteful posts... Disgusting, agreed. Anyone who wants actual facts read David Conn.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 14:49:11 GMT 1
So in summary then, unlawfully killed means what? That the fans had absolutely nothing to do with crushing other fans, it was 100% the authorities to blame and as the deaths were unlawful, the no win no fee parasites will be setting up in Liverpool to sue the police? It may well be the final outcome wanted by the campaigners, whether it's justice I don't know. Sounds more of a blame game somehow to remove any form of guilt on the fans side. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change anything other than blame and liability. Occasionally you need to think before you type Marcus. You post some incendiary comments on here at times but this is probably one of your most distasteful posts... I call it factual. I don't follow this unwritten rule amongst some football fans and most people from Liverpool, that the tragic incident was exclusively caused by the Police and that the fans without tickets, rushing the gates were absolutely not responsible for any of their actions, in any way what so ever.
It's a blame culture society and this completely sums it up. Everyone wants someone else to blame for 100% of any incident, where in reality the blame lies on several sides. No one entity caused this problem.
If the fans rushing the outer gate causing the Police to open it, had crushed other fans there because the police didn't open it, who would be to blame? The police? So it they open the gate and fans were crushed they are to blame and if they leave it shut and fans were crushed there, they are also to blame.
It was a tragedy from over 25 years ago, no one side was to blame and lessons have been learned. Carrying on investigation and campaigning until all fans were exonerated and the police held entirely liable is not justice, it's apportioning total blame to one side and opening the channel for lawsuits.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 14:54:12 GMT 1
So in summary then, unlawfully killed means what? That the fans had absolutely nothing to do with crushing other fans, it was 100% the authorities to blame and as the deaths were unlawful, the no win no fee parasites will be setting up in Liverpool to sue the police? It may well be the final outcome wanted by the campaigners, whether it's justice I don't know. Sounds more of a blame game somehow to remove any form of guilt on the fans side. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change anything other than blame and liability. Occasionally you need to think before you type Marcus. You post some incendiary comments on here at times but this is probably one of your most distasteful posts... Actually, Marcus hasn't put that eloquently. If he is questioning whether this verdict completely exonerates the fans from some liability of what happened - then he has a point. Evidence was heard in this trial of fans entering without tickets which put pressure on an already volatile situation. However, I think many can agree that the Police, especially the man in charge that day, fucked up and if the fan management was run properly the disaster would've been potentially avoided.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 15:02:25 GMT 1
Occasionally you need to think before you type Marcus. You post some incendiary comments on here at times but this is probably one of your most distasteful posts... Actually, Marcus hasn't put that eloquently. If he is questioning whether this verdict completely exonerates the fans from some liability of what happened - then he has a point. Evidence was heard in this trial of fans entering without tickets which put pressure on an already volatile situation. However, I think many can agree that the Police, especially the man in charge that day, fucked up and if the fan management was run properly the disaster would've been potentially avoided. surely the singular reason the entire tragedy happened is because some fuckwit of a police officer instructed that the side gates be opened, ergo causing a massive influx of fans, who had no idea what was in store for them? Caged in like animals. Nowhere to go. Everywhere people suffocating and being crushed while the copper who gave the order quickly covered his own back by getting the police force to close ranks and protect him from any possible accusations. How can anyone blame the fans? Tanked up or not they are completely innocent. Without the side gate being opened the tragic events would never have happened would they?
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Post by Torquayterrier on Apr 26, 2016 15:12:18 GMT 1
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 15:25:04 GMT 1
Actually, Marcus hasn't put that eloquently. If he is questioning whether this verdict completely exonerates the fans from some liability of what happened - then he has a point. Evidence was heard in this trial of fans entering without tickets which put pressure on an already volatile situation. However, I think many can agree that the Police, especially the man in charge that day, fucked up and if the fan management was run properly the disaster would've been potentially avoided. surely the singular reason the entire tragedy happened is because some fuckwit of a police officer instructed that the side gates be opened, ergo causing a massive influx of fans, who had no idea what was in store for them? Caged in like animals. Nowhere to go. Everywhere people suffocating and being crushed while the copper who gave the order quickly covered his own back by getting the police force to close ranks and protect him from any possible accusations. How can anyone blame the fans? Tanked up or not they are completely innocent. Without the side gate being opened the tragic events would never have happened would they? In previous games at the same location, same end, the pressure of fans outside had caused the opening of a gate to allow the crush outside to be released.. they didnt end in tragedy, although from my posts above this could have been very different. Do you allow a fast moving public order situation to become much worse outside the ground or try and release the build up of pressure?? your call.. someone or a few are killed or badly injured outside or the release goes well and nobody is badly hurt?? or the actual events unfold as they did? you release and then its down to hoping its gone numerous times before and everyone does not crowd down on single area.. you will lose whatever choice you make.. nobody on earth gets paid enough or is senior enough to make or to stand and fall on those type of decisions.. heads you lose, tails you lose.. They dont make them now, your civil rights are impinged upon before the crowd get to make any bad moves en masse..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 15:25:34 GMT 1
Actually, Marcus hasn't put that eloquently. If he is questioning whether this verdict completely exonerates the fans from some liability of what happened - then he has a point. Evidence was heard in this trial of fans entering without tickets which put pressure on an already volatile situation. However, I think many can agree that the Police, especially the man in charge that day, fucked up and if the fan management was run properly the disaster would've been potentially avoided. surely the singular reason the entire tragedy happened is because some fuckwit of a police officer instructed that the side gates be opened, ergo causing a massive influx of fans, who had no idea what was in store for them? Caged in like animals. Nowhere to go. Everywhere people suffocating and being crushed while the copper who gave the order quickly covered his own back by getting the police force to close ranks and protect him from any possible accusations. How can anyone blame the fans? Tanked up or not they are completely innocent. Without the side gate being opened the tragic events would never have happened would they? Every action has a cause and a reaction. I'm chuffed Liverpool fans have got justice, especially after the lies spread by Thatcher's government, SYP and the ring wing media. However, evidence heard in the trail showed there were Liverpool fans in the ground without tickets - how much of a part did that play? nobody can ever know - but you imagine it didn't help.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 15:28:18 GMT 1
btw, the man in charge on the day had little powers to start or coerce a cover up involving the media and the government, which planet do you actually live on? middle ranking police officer overseeing a total balls up??? yes he could organise it all in a matter of hours, nay minutes.. bollox,,
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 15:30:14 GMT 1
So in summary then, unlawfully killed means what? That the fans had absolutely nothing to do with crushing other fans, it was 100% the authorities to blame and as the deaths were unlawful, the no win no fee parasites will be setting up in Liverpool to sue the police? It may well be the final outcome wanted by the campaigners, whether it's justice I don't know. Sounds more of a blame game somehow to remove any form of guilt on the fans side. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change anything other than blame and liability. Your a stupid horirible bastard.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 15:30:27 GMT 1
Occasionally you need to think before you type Marcus. You post some incendiary comments on here at times but this is probably one of your most distasteful posts... I call it factual. I don't follow this unwritten rule amongst some football fans and most people from Liverpool, that the tragic incident was exclusively caused by the Police and that the fans without tickets, rushing the gates were absolutely not responsible for any of their actions, in any way what so ever.
It's a blame culture society and this completely sums it up. Everyone wants someone else to blame for 100% of any incident, where in reality the blame lies on several sides. No one entity caused this problem.
If the fans rushing the outer gate causing the Police to open it, had crushed other fans there because the police didn't open it, who would be to blame? The police? So it they open the gate and fans were crushed they are to blame and if they leave it shut and fans were crushed there, they are also to blame.
It was a tragedy from over 25 years ago, no one side was to blame and lessons have been learned. Carrying on investigation and campaigning until all fans were exonerated and the police held entirely liable is not justice, it's apportioning total blame to one side and opening the channel for lawsuits.
I don't think many people are suggesting the fans are entirely blameless Marcus. The justice aspect is about the outrageous cover-ups after the event and the shifting of blame incorrectly. Surely the establishment were trying to do exactly what you suggest the supporters groups were doing for the last 25 years but today they've been found out? I do agree that we live in a blame culture society but I think you're a way off if you think "everyone wants someone else to blame for 100% of any incident". The only people in that bracket are the ambulance chasing litigation firms... I certainly don't live my life in that way... 25 yrs - for fucks sake man, do you get this has robbed so many people, families of all sorts of things & all they were doing was trying to get the truth to be uncovered & debated properly because surprisingly enough the establishment closes ranks when it's threatened and it takes this long to achieve this sort of outcome. Your reference of 'most people from Liverpool' also sounds just like any right wing press headline... Quite a few of the campaigners and family members are long since gone because of the time it's taken for this to get to where it is. Put yourself in their shoes just for five minutes and realise you're being a little over cynical on this occasion...
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Post by whiskymac on Apr 26, 2016 15:30:29 GMT 1
I went to Hillsboroguh to watch Town a couple of years before the tragedy with my 2 young sons. Due to traffic and being unable to park we ended up a bit late and we were ushered into the tunnel at Leppings Lane but I refused to take my kids in there as all you could see was a wall of people and fortunately they allowed us to transfer to the stand. It was obvious then that there was a problem to every football fan that had been there. The problem is that the prawn sandwich brigade that make the decisions would never see it. A couple of years later at a Patrons meeting when the police were there as guest and they were asked if any of them were footall fans none of them had ever been to a game as a fan. You only have to look at the hierarchay West Yorkshire Police today and see that their opinion of football fans is that we are all drunkards and it should be kept to a minimum exposure. We are all just herded like cattle every where we go.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 15:31:08 GMT 1
Does the Guardian article blame UKIP?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 15:33:20 GMT 1
btw, the man in charge on the day had little powers to start or coerce a cover up involving the media and the government, which planet do you actually live on? middle ranking police officer overseeing a total balls up??? yes he could organise it all in a matter of hours, nay minutes.. bollox,, Obviously the cover up came from above but agreed that it will be the coppers on duty trying to do their job that get the blame.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 15:43:20 GMT 1
I went to Hillsboroguh to watch Town a couple of years before the tragedy with my 2 young sons. Due to traffic and being unable to park we ended up a bit late and we were ushered into the tunnel at Leppings Lane but I refused to take my kids in there as all you could see was a wall of people and fortunately they allowed us to transfer to the stand. It was obvious then that there was a problem to every football fan that had been there. The problem is that the prawn sandwich brigade that make the decisions would never see it. A couple of years later at a Patrons meeting when the police were there as guest and they were asked if any of them were footall fans none of them had ever been to a game as a fan. You only have to look at the hierarchay West Yorkshire Police today and see that their opinion of football fans is that we are all drunkards and it should be kept to a minimum exposure. We are all just herded like cattle every where we go. same thing was pointed out by the police on a number of occasions re leppings lane. leeds were put in there as were liverpool due to the safety executive wanting the car parking and release of fans afterwards to be made easier. leeds brought more fans than coventry as did liverpool over notts forest.. ease of vehicular and pedestrian access and egress meant that the 'biggest support' would be in the wrong place for safety. The FA wanted the biggest possible crowd. btw the 3 senior police officers I know, who have all been involved in doing football matches are all lifelong football fans and go to every match as supporters as they can.. its another myth.. we still have our fair share and some of the drunkards and idiots.. its as bad as tarring all the liverpool supporters on the day..
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Post by gledholt terrier on Apr 26, 2016 15:47:43 GMT 1
btw, the man in charge on the day had little powers to start or coerce a cover up involving the media and the government, which planet do you actually live on? middle ranking police officer overseeing a total balls up??? yes he could organise it all in a matter of hours, nay minutes.. bollox,, According to the longest inquest in British legal history; The man in charge that day was promoted about 2 weeks before, replacing a popular, experienced man who was moved for internal political reasons, had prepared totally inadequately, made fatal decisions because he was inexperienced, hadn't bothered to read the safety plans for the day and was then personally complicit in a wide ranging, deep conspiracy to cover up the events at the behest of his thoroughly unpleasant superiors, which began on the very day of the tragedy. Thankfully, after the actual evidence has been laid out in full for an inquest to make a decision we don't have to listen to opinions, informed by deliberate misdirection by the police and their political masters any more. Kelvin McKenzie, Simon Heffer, Boris Johnson, Bernard Ingham and the other crypto fascists can fuck off and never utter their emphatically discredited garbage again.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 15:48:48 GMT 1
surely the singular reason the entire tragedy happened is because some fuckwit of a police officer instructed that the side gates be opened, ergo causing a massive influx of fans, who had no idea what was in store for them? Caged in like animals. Nowhere to go. Everywhere people suffocating and being crushed while the copper who gave the order quickly covered his own back by getting the police force to close ranks and protect him from any possible accusations. How can anyone blame the fans? Tanked up or not they are completely innocent. Without the side gate being opened the tragic events would never have happened would they? Every action has a cause and a reaction. I'm chuffed Liverpool fans have got justice, especially after the lies spread by Thatcher's government, SYP and the ring wing media. However, evidence heard in the trail showed there were Liverpool fans in the ground without tickets - how much of a part did that play? nobody can ever know - but you imagine it didn't help. I suppose so, It's all if's, but's, maybes.
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