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Post by Bojaj Horseman on Apr 26, 2016 18:22:54 GMT 1
Anyone trying to trot out the old canards about 'thieving scousers' being to blame, or that they're trying to exploit the situation, just look anywhere reputable on the internet that is running a detailed story on the verdict. Maybe, just maybe, it would be better to read the facts of one of the most detailed judicial inquests in legal history. As difficult it may seem, you are wrong. So before you spit your bile across this forum and make an embarrassment of the fans of this football club, think about the people that died. Think about their families. Think about their friends. And think about us because you make us fucking despair.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 26, 2016 18:22:57 GMT 1
In previous games at the same location, same end, the pressure of fans outside had caused the opening of a gate to allow the crush outside to be released.. they didnt end in tragedy, although from my posts above this could have been very different. Do you allow a fast moving public order situation to become much worse outside the ground or try and release the build up of pressure?? your call.. someone or a few are killed or badly injured outside or the release goes well and nobody is badly hurt?? or the actual events unfold as they did? you release and then its down to hoping its gone numerous times before and everyone does not crowd down on single area.. you will lose whatever choice you make.. nobody on earth gets paid enough or is senior enough to make or to stand and fall on those type of decisions.. heads you lose, tails you lose.. They dont make them now, your civil rights are impinged upon before the crowd get to make any bad moves en masse.. This tragic incident has always plagued me as I attended the Semi final Leeds v Coventry in 1987 and we had the same end. Once in the ground I have never before or after ever seen such a mass crowd packed into such a terrace. We were lucky and were in the higher corner part of Leppings Lane so avoided the pens behind the goal but still remember feeling a tad uncomfortable even from our lofty viewpoint. What I do remember is getting off our mini bus near Wadsley Bridge on the hill and as soon as we reached those streets near the ground having our tickets strictly scrutinised long before we got near the turnstiles. Why this wasn't done 2 years after has always puzzled me or did Liverpool just have way more numbers all arriving en masse at the same time? Maybe our reputation was the cause for the ticket checks who knows? As for today's verdict there are no winners in the end, most of the senior staff now held responsible are either passed away themselves or too old to face trial. What I am sure of is surely none of the emergency services on duty that fateful day wanted this to happen either and the blame game will never put any of this sad affair right. numbers were far bigger and the numbers over a very short period of time added to it.. it became impossible very quickly to conduct the usual procedures.. But I repeat, the main people involved in the build up to this 'perfect storm' and the subsequent cover up of the inadequacies of the organisation and the ground itself by deflecting all blame onto 'dead people' will never be identified and held to account. I watch the families and supporters singing outside the inquest and im still sad and troubled that this 'verdict' satisfies them.. In my mind its a start to get at the real villains of it all.. In final part, should you turn up into a crowd scene and find the way blocked or you are not getting to where you want to be quickly enough, should you begin a shove?? there are certainly some supporters on that day that it surely must still give nightmares to? or does every single one genuinely believe or has convinced themselves that they were the ones pushed?
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Macjinx
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Post by Macjinx on Apr 26, 2016 18:39:27 GMT 1
I just knew crapper would be on here STILL whining about how Liverpool fans must share the blame. Truth is there was a rush of their fans due to roadworks delaying their journey and the start should really have been delayed but wasn't. Apparently Crapper has kept his copy of the Sun from the day after the tragedy. He needs a good fisting from an angry Hulk.
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Post by hypotenuse on Apr 26, 2016 18:40:28 GMT 1
Anyone trying to trot out the old canards about 'thieving scousers' being to blame, or that they're trying to exploit the situation, just look anywhere reputable on the internet that is running a detailed story on the verdict. Maybe, just maybe, it would be better to read the facts of one of the most detailed judicial inquests in legal history. As difficult it may seem, you are wrong. So before you spit your bile across this forum and make an embarrassment of the fans of this football club, think about the people that died. Think about their families. Think about their friends. And think about us because you make us fucking despair. l A truly wonderful post. I wish I had written it.
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Post by Manx Terrier on Apr 26, 2016 18:49:17 GMT 1
Excellent piece by the Guardian and thanks for the link. This from someone who hates the Guardian! It started going downhill after it dropped the word Manchester from the title and then moved editorial staff to London.
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Post by ellandterrier on Apr 26, 2016 18:54:49 GMT 1
Clappyhapper, i was in the ground that day, you "pal" are a first class prick. I was privy first hand to the lines of police doing absolutely nothing, stood around talking, laughing. No ambulances in attendance. Fans and the fantastic St Johns carrying injured and dead past the corner terrace i was in. Advertising boards used as stretchers. You have absolutely no idea what happened, brainwashed by the Murdoch press. Refer to my first sentence if ever in doubt of your social standing
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Post by gledholt terrier on Apr 26, 2016 19:08:09 GMT 1
Clappyhapper, i was in the ground that day, you "pal" are a first class prick. I was privy first hand to the lines of police doing absolutely nothing, stood around talking, laughing. No ambulances in attendance. Fans and the fantastic St Johns carrying injured and dead past the corner terrace i was in. Advertising boards used as stretchers. You have absolutely no idea what happened, brainwashed by the Murdoch press. Refer to my first sentence if ever in doubt of your social standing You'd think he'd have the decency and/or humility to shut the fuck up. While I don't agree with a lot of Galpharm's views either, they are considered and don't deny the basic facts of what happened. Clappy simply continues to buy the narrative deliberately propagated by the police and their political supporters which have been entirely and thoroughly destroyed by an inquest which was finally held with a proper framework, not a snowjob like the previous botch ups. 2 long years of intensive investigation, facts, witnesses, acceptances of culpability, a complete demolishing of the "pissed up fans charged the gate" myth and finally getting to the truth, yet clappy clings to his own, fact free opinions because well, fuck knows why. Anyway, those on the right side of history can at least be happy that justice has been done, even if bereaved people have been put through hell from the very first day and for 27 years.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 19:48:51 GMT 1
Wrong man in charge on the day Marsh, not the guy who had overseen operations at previous big games at Hillsborough but a new guy who hadn't been to the ground in 10 years and never led a matchday operation there and sadly, who NOW by his own admission made mistake after mistake leading upto and on that fateful day. The David Conn article covers it all but sadly Marcus won't read it because it's in the Guardian. So, should the police have opened the outside gate, or left it shut? In the knowledge that fans were getting crushed outside of the ground, should they have ignored the risk that some may die being crushed outside, to avoid possibly more being killed inside?
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 26, 2016 19:55:14 GMT 1
D for disgrace
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Post by andyeastleake on Apr 26, 2016 20:07:07 GMT 1
I don't think many people are suggesting the fans are entirely blameless I may be missing a trick, Blimey but isn't that exactly what the jury has done. .....or am I misinterpreting the answer to the question " Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?" Given the emphasis that I've included, I have to say I'm a little surprised the answer was an unclarified "No". I would have anticipated a "Yes" with an explanation that other factors were far far more contributory. I find it hard to believe for example that if the crowd had been queueing as calmly outside Hillsborough as the old ladies in East Leake Post Office on pension day that the outside gates would ever have been opened. Edited inclusionPs I wrote the above directly after reading Blimey's post and not the rest of the thread. I stand by it but I hope everyone notices my "far far more contributory" line. I'm not taking the same line as some.
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Post by impact on Apr 26, 2016 20:38:43 GMT 1
I don't think many people are suggesting the fans are entirely blameless I may be missing a trick, Blimey but isn't that exactly what the jury has done. .....or am I misinterpreting the answer to the question " Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?" Given the emphasis that I've included, I have to say I'm a little surprised the answer was an unclarified "No". I would have anticipated a "Yes" with an explanation that other factors were far far more contributory. I find it hard to believe for example that if the crowd had been queueing as calmly outside Hillsborough as the old ladies in East Leake Post Office on pension day that the outside gates would ever have been opened. Edited inclusionPs I wrote the above directly after reading Blimey's post and not the rest of the thread. I stand by it but I hope everyone notices my "far far more contributory" line. I'm not taking the same line as some. I guess it depends how far back you go though. You could then say it's the fans' fault as if none of them had shown up it wouldn't have happened, which is clearly a ridiculous statement. I was of a similar opinion then read up a bit and thought about it. Even with all the extra fans there it could have been avoided with better management from the police on the day, for example not opening the gate. That's why, IMO, the fans were not to blame. I get what you're saying about the no being definitive but you could then include thousands of other reasons.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 26, 2016 20:45:26 GMT 1
Has anyone linked the David Conn overview in the guardian ? Just read that it's all there .. All questions answered
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Post by Barbieterrier on Apr 26, 2016 20:58:32 GMT 1
Thanks for sharing that. Very interesting. Makes my blood run cold all of it. But simply put - no organisation for such a huge group of people with no direction once in the ground of where to go. To blame the fans based on this is absolutely despicable. The cover up leaves me speechless
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 26, 2016 21:17:41 GMT 1
Wrong man in charge on the day Marsh, not the guy who had overseen operations at previous big games at Hillsborough but a new guy who hadn't been to the ground in 10 years and never led a matchday operation there and sadly, who NOW by his own admission made mistake after mistake leading upto and on that fateful day. The David Conn article covers it all but sadly Marcus won't read it because it's in the Guardian. So, should the police have opened the outside gate, or left it shut? In the knowledge that fans were getting crushed outside of the ground, should they have ignored the risk that some may die being crushed outside, to avoid possibly more being killed inside? They should have controlled the whole day better, firstly weeding out the ticketless fans way before they reached that area and secondly insisting upon a delay to the match starting so they could sort the whole mess outside the pitiful 7 turnstiles without the fans worrying about missing the kickoff. These 2 simple steps would have avoided a problem outside the ground and then they should have applied the 'Freeman procedure' within the ground. If these had been done then IMO there would have been no loss of life that day.
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Post by Lard Buttie on Apr 26, 2016 21:31:24 GMT 1
Any on hear Kenny Dalglish being interviewed by his daughter Kelly on BBC5 live at teatime.
Choking stuff. A man who showed great dignity at the time and after.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Apr 26, 2016 21:37:09 GMT 1
Any on hear Kenny Dalglish being interviewed by his daughter Kelly on BBC5 live at teatime. Choking stuff. A man who showed great dignity at the time and after. An absolute legend as footballer and amazing in his support of all the familys according to what has been said.
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Post by Lard Buttie on Apr 26, 2016 21:39:37 GMT 1
Any on hear Kenny Dalglish being interviewed by his daughter Kelly on BBC5 live at teatime. Choking stuff. A man who showed great dignity at the time and after. An absolute legend as footballer and amazing in his support of all the familys according to what has been said. IIRC he went to every funeral after Hillsborough. Think that took its toll on him as LFC manager tbh. Such a decent guy as well as a great footballer.
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Post by Torquayterrier on Apr 26, 2016 21:45:34 GMT 1
Has anyone linked the David Conn overview in the guardian ? Just read that it's all there .. All questions answered Yes, I posted a link earlier today that you can quickly get to that article from. Barbie quoted it in post after yours so no need for me to post it again. Sobering stuff throughout.
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Post by Torquayterrier on Apr 26, 2016 21:47:21 GMT 1
An absolute legend as footballer and amazing in his support of all the familys according to what has been said. IIRC he went to every funeral after Hillsborough. Think that took its toll on him as LFC manager tbh. Such a decent guy as well as a great footballer. Christ, all of them? that'd take its toll on any sane individual whether manager or not. Commendable all the same.
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Apr 26, 2016 21:53:08 GMT 1
Had not a single policeman been at the match what would the outcome have been? All were to blame, the fans especially the ticket-less fans, the cops, the FA, the club, Sheff Weds. A catalogue of errors. A scapegoat is always required in such instances....werent me guv, it was Hitler.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 21:59:19 GMT 1
So, should the police have opened the outside gate, or left it shut? In the knowledge that fans were getting crushed outside of the ground, should they have ignored the risk that some may die being crushed outside, to avoid possibly more being killed inside? They should have controlled the whole day better, firstly weeding out the ticketless fans way before they reached that area and secondly insisting upon a delay to the match starting so they could sort the whole mess outside the pitiful 7 turnstiles without the fans worrying about missing the kickoff. These 2 simple steps would have avoided a problem outside the ground and then they should have applied the 'Freeman procedure' within the ground. If these had been done then IMO there would have been no loss of life that day. And if the fans had not turned up without tickets? Had not surged the gate forcing the police to open it for fear of people being crushed to death? I'm not saying the police aren't at fault, but the mindset about the scousers has always been that it was purely Thatcher's Bizzies to blame and this is not true, even though pressure has finally made this cobblers a reality.
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Macjinx
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Post by Macjinx on Apr 26, 2016 22:00:06 GMT 1
Have you paid any attention to this thread Oti, or do you just want to wind people up like crapper ? For someone who tries to come across as intelligent (Muslims apart) you can be a thick fucker at times.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 22:02:32 GMT 1
An absolute legend as footballer and amazing in his support of all the familys according to what has been said. IIRC he went to every funeral after Hillsborough. Think that took its toll on him as LFC manager tbh. Such a decent guy as well as a great footballer. Really? All 96? How many a day? How long did they last, 6 weeks? So much if this has become folklore it's untrue.
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Post by mids on Apr 26, 2016 22:12:00 GMT 1
IIRC he went to every funeral after Hillsborough. Think that took its toll on him as LFC manager tbh. Such a decent guy as well as a great footballer. Really? All 96? How many a day? How long did they last, 6 weeks? So much if this has become folklore it's untrue. Don't be a dick. You have your own opinion on what caused the tragedy...but ffs shut up now, especially today. However Dalglish going to the funerals is fact. No 'opinion' needed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 22:12:37 GMT 1
They should have controlled the whole day better, firstly weeding out the ticketless fans way before they reached that area and secondly insisting upon a delay to the match starting so they could sort the whole mess outside the pitiful 7 turnstiles without the fans worrying about missing the kickoff. These 2 simple steps would have avoided a problem outside the ground and then they should have applied the 'Freeman procedure' within the ground. If these had been done then IMO there would have been no loss of life that day. And if the fans had not turned up without tickets? Had not surged the gate forcing the police to open it for fear of people being crushed to death? I'm not saying the police aren't at fault, but the mindset about the scousers has always been that it was purely Thatcher's Bizzies to blame and this is not true, even though pressure has finally made this cobblers a reality. Enough. Please, that's enough now.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on Apr 26, 2016 22:21:23 GMT 1
They should have controlled the whole day better, firstly weeding out the ticketless fans way before they reached that area and secondly insisting upon a delay to the match starting so they could sort the whole mess outside the pitiful 7 turnstiles without the fans worrying about missing the kickoff. These 2 simple steps would have avoided a problem outside the ground and then they should have applied the 'Freeman procedure' within the ground. If these had been done then IMO there would have been no loss of life that day. And if the fans had not turned up without tickets? Had not surged the gate forcing the police to open it for fear of people being crushed to death? I'm not saying the police aren't at fault, but the mindset about the scousers has always been that it was purely Thatcher's Bizzies to blame and this is not true, even though pressure has finally made this cobblers a reality. Honestly Marcus I don't care what you think or are saying. Your use of the word bizzies belittles your argument and shows your bias! The extensive inquiry has delivered it's findings and they found the police operation was at fault NOT the fans. With these findings I believe justice has finally been seen to be done. I would personally like to see those involved in the cover-up face charges. Nothing wrong with making honest mistakes at the time but the cover up that followed was an outrage! Why not educate yourself and watch the David Conn piece!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 22:24:23 GMT 1
IIRC he went to every funeral after Hillsborough. Think that took its toll on him as LFC manager tbh. Such a decent guy as well as a great footballer. Really? All 96? How many a day? How long did they last, 6 weeks? So much if this has become folklore it's untrue. As many as 4 a day. LINK
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 22:24:48 GMT 1
Really? All 96? How many a day? How long did they last, 6 weeks? So much if this has become folklore it's untrue. Don't be a dick. You have your own opinion on what caused the tragedy...but ffs shut up now, especially today. However Dalglish going to the funerals is fact. No 'opinion' needed. Of course he didn't attend all 96 funerals. Some people need to take a reality check over this and look at the folklore that's been fed to them over this late 80's tragedy.
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Post by space hardware on Apr 26, 2016 22:25:53 GMT 1
IIRC he went to every funeral after Hillsborough. Think that took its toll on him as LFC manager tbh. Such a decent guy as well as a great footballer. Really? All 96? How many a day? How long did they last, 6 weeks? So much if this has become folklore it's untrue. He and his wife went to four funerals in a single day. Give it a rest now. Seriously, just give it a rest.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Apr 26, 2016 22:26:07 GMT 1
Really? All 96? How many a day? How long did they last, 6 weeks? So much if this has become folklore it's untrue. Don't be a dick. You have your own opinion on what caused the tragedy...but ffs shut up now, especially today. However Dalglish going to the funerals is fact. No 'opinion' needed. One of your best posts.
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