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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 22:27:54 GMT 1
Really? All 96? How many a day? How long did they last, 6 weeks? So much if this has become folklore it's untrue. As many as 4 a day. LINK 4 in ONE day, not 4 every day for 7 days a week, day in, say out for nearly 4 weeks. Come on, let's be sensible on the myths here.
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Post by Lard Buttie on Apr 26, 2016 22:38:20 GMT 1
I wonder what the death toll would have been had the LFC fans not assisted (rather than the authorities)? I happened to live over there at the time and knew people/friends who were there. 1st hand testimony, not The Sun's!!!!!! I'm off over to Liverpool tomorrow to see a good friend. Will be taking a Town to Anfield.
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Post by Lard Buttie on Apr 26, 2016 22:43:15 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 22:43:36 GMT 1
Seen tomorrow's front pages? Not a single mention in The Times or The Sun of Hillsborough
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 22:53:32 GMT 1
4 in ONE day, not 4 every day for 7 days a week, day in, say out for nearly 4 weeks. Come on, let's be sensible on the myths here. No, it would be wrong to say he attended every one, but he did attend a lot. Those that he didn't he ensured a Liverpool representative did. Be thankful you or any of your family weren't involved, that tragedy could have occurred with any football club cup match at Hillsborough. Football fans without tickets were a minority, used as a red herring by the inept authorities at the time, and rightly dismissed by the original inquiry. I don't expect your viewpoint will change whatever anyone says, i don't intend to debate this any further.
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Macduff
Andy Booth Terrier
I've got a Gibson without a case but I cant get that even tanned look on my face.
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Post by Macduff on Apr 26, 2016 23:00:31 GMT 1
Seen tomorrow's front pages? Not a single mention in The Times or The Sun of Hillsborough Well they can join crapper and make a bunch of mealy mouthed fuckers.
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Post by alexdire on Apr 26, 2016 23:15:01 GMT 1
Has anyone linked the David Conn overview in the guardian ? Just read that it's all there .. All questions answered It doesn't answer or mention two things: What time the Liverpool fans turned up to get in. In the 80's there was a culture of turning up in the last 15-20 mins. That's fans from all clubs. Doesn't mention the ticket less fans. This was a particular problem with Liverpool fans. This can't be proved or disproved after this time but would have been the first major Liverpool game without any. Just see videos of the ,86 cup final. Both of these must have been contributory factors in the chaos that ensued. I've always believed the major factor was the pens and tunnels, which were a death trap. That's after being involved in a slight crush at Wednesday V Liverpool game in 85, 48k going on 60k in the ground. Add to that the attitude of Police of riot control not public safety. Brought about by the violence of the 80's and the miners strike.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 23:29:59 GMT 1
Has anyone linked the David Conn overview in the guardian ? Just read that it's all there .. All questions answered It doesn't answer or mention two things: What time the Liverpool fans turned up to get in. In the 80's there was a culture of turning up in the last 15-20 mins. That's fans from all clubs. Doesn't mention the ticket less fans. This was a particular problem with Liverpool fans. This can't be proved or disproved after this time but would have been the first major Liverpool game without any. Just see videos of the ,86 cup final. Both of these must have been contributory factors in the chaos that ensued. I've always believed the major factor was the pens and tunnels, which were a death trap. That's after being involved in a slight crush at Wednesday V Liverpool game in 85, 48k going on 60k in the ground. Add to that the attitude of Police of riot control not public safety. Brought about by the violence of the 80's and the miners strike. As i've already pointed out, the issue of 'ticket less fans' was dismissed as irrelevant as 'proved' by the original inquiry over 25 bloody years ago.. Edit...Add on to that some fans did turn up late due to road works on the M62 also well documented at the time, yet another 'red herring'. Remember our last trip to Wembley? How many fans turned up at half time?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 23:50:45 GMT 1
Marcus, just to lay this out for you in simple terms...
The event took place over 27 yrs ago. There was CCTV, the ground had policed these events previously, it was the same 2 teams from the year previously & therefore you'd have to assume very similar ticketing arrangements to 1989 had been present in April 1988. Why did this day turn out so different?
Were there more Liverpool fans than 1988, more of them drunk, without tickets? Or was it likely to be a similar event?
Given that this was a regular occurrence for this club to appear in big games such as this (i.e. no sudden upsurge in the usual people trying to blag a ticket because it's something that club hadn't done for donkeys yrs) you could logically think there wasn't that much of a difference in the fans behaviour from the previous yr.
So, as evidenced very clearly today & before this, the difference seems to pivot on a single key point, that of the man in charge on the day. It's fairly obvious to most outsiders that, even without the belated but gut wrenching admissions of Insp Duckinfield, the approach he took compared to previous incumbents was poles apart & way beyond his capabilities at the time. I don't need to spell any of those differences out for you, it's all there from reliable sources.
Only Mr Duckinfield will ever know why he lied on the day and then supported a shame & blame campaign for so long. Taking blame aside for a minute & if his statement is truly genuine, then I can't see how his life has been anything other than a living hell for 27 yrs and he'll be a broken man until the day he dies. That still doesn't excuse the fact that he had the power to bring all this to a shuddering conclusion years ago and didn't, he admits everyone knew for all these yrs it was his decision to open those gates & hence he knows why they've been fighting for the truth for so long. It's not a made up truth that's drifted a little through the passage of time, it's a truth known by hundreds if not thousands of people who the establishment were calling 'tanked-up yobs' & hooligans...
So going back to the point of this enquiry. As said, CCTV even back then was sufficient to piece this together relatively quickly and if the Police and higher ups had shown a shred of humanity & decency in the immediate aftermath and years following and not doctored officer statements etc. then this very same outcome could & should have been sorted in the early 90's.
Duckinfield in some respects is the stool pigeon here, but put yourselves in the shoes of a surviving Mother or Father, Sister or Brother etc. I'm pretty sure their lives will have been ruined & it will still take many of them yrs to come to terms with today on a personal & private level. I'd argue that many will never come to terms because the psychological scars will be very deep rooted.
So for you to come on here and bang the drum that this is somehow motivated by Liverpudlians trying to pass the buck is quite frankly disgraceful. You are one heck of a narrow minded, ill informed person and I think you need to let this one go now...
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mozz72
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Post by mozz72 on Apr 27, 2016 1:08:44 GMT 1
I hope the victims families and all directly affected get closure by the decision.. but my humble opinion is that the delays and cover ups are gonna prevent it due to individual accusations over the verdict (right or wrong) being brought up over the years .. just hope it can be laid to rest
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Post by kennyk2 on Apr 27, 2016 7:14:39 GMT 1
I hope the victims families and all directly affected get closure by the decision.. but my humble opinion is that the delays and cover ups are gonna prevent it due to individual accusations over the verdict (right or wrong) being brought up over the years .. just hope it can be laid to rest I don't think so, this is just the start of it. The next stage will be prosecution of the "blameworthy", to get more justice, and then it will be a review of the compensation claims for the victims' families to get even more justice. And so it goes on...
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Post by kennyk2 on Apr 27, 2016 7:17:22 GMT 1
Seen tomorrow's front pages? Not a single mention in The Times or The Sun of Hillsborough This is interesting, in that it is an example of how the media, whether that is the BBC or the Sun controls what news makes it into the public domain, or more importantly, what doesn't.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 27, 2016 7:18:25 GMT 1
i could never understand that if there were a cover-up (which there obviously was) how the people who instigated said cover up could live with themselves after that. The manic street preachers song (from 1996) SYMM addresses this .. "south Yorkshire mass murderers .. how do you sleep at night ?"
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Post by Porrohman on Apr 27, 2016 7:19:22 GMT 1
Listening to 5Live on the way to work, they said all the major papers have the story on the front page bar one, no prizes for guessing which
Sent from my SM-G900F using proboards
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 27, 2016 7:22:44 GMT 1
Seen tomorrow's front pages? Not a single mention in The Times or The Sun of Hillsborough This is interesting, in that it is an example of how the media, whether that is the BBC or the Sun controls what news makes it into the public domain, or more importantly, what doesn't. Of course.... and a large proportion of that filtered to us is from an Australian with an agenda (and a bit of form for hacking into the phones of dead schoolgirls ) .. funnily enough the Marcuses of this work seem quite at ease with this type of immigrant ..
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 27, 2016 7:26:04 GMT 1
Has anyone linked the David Conn overview in the guardian ? Just read that it's all there .. All questions answered It doesn't answer or mention two things: What time the Liverpool fans turned up to get in. In the 80's there was a culture of turning up in the last 15-20 mins. That's fans from all clubs. Doesn't mention the ticket less fans. This was a particular problem with Liverpool fans. This can't be proved or disproved after this time but would have been the first major Liverpool game without any. Just see videos of the ,86 cup final. Both of these must have been contributory factors in the chaos that ensued. I've always believed the major factor was the pens and tunnels, which were a death trap. That's after being involved in a slight crush at Wednesday V Liverpool game in 85, 48k going on 60k in the ground. Add to that the attitude of Police of riot control not public safety. Brought about by the violence of the 80's and the miners strike. Just catching up with this on here .. I hadn't realised Conn had been linked . Some brilliant posts on this thread.. and the usual suspects struggling to come to terms with the outcome , based on the narrative they saw on day one and obvious still can't get out of their heads.. you'll get there lads .. one day .
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Apr 27, 2016 7:27:39 GMT 1
A few Wendies i know on facebook have posted its all wrong and they are innocent. ??
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 27, 2016 7:32:08 GMT 1
A few Wendies i know on facebook have posted its all wrong and they are innocent. ?? I'm sure Sheffield Wednesday fans are innocent Nick .. thanks for your continued high levels of insight and analysis
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on Apr 27, 2016 7:34:01 GMT 1
A few Wendies i know on facebook have posted its all wrong and they are innocent. ?? I'm sure Sheffield Wednesday fans are innocent Nick .. thanks for your continued high levels of insight and analysis Meaning their club i mean. Also saying the verdict is wrong. Shows how thick they are.
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Apr 27, 2016 7:35:44 GMT 1
A few Wendies i know on facebook have posted its all wrong and they are innocent. ?? The club knew they didn't have a valid safety certificate, yet they are innocent? Do me a favour.
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Post by mids on Apr 27, 2016 7:38:55 GMT 1
I'm sure Sheffield Wednesday fans are innocent Nick .. thanks for your continued high levels of insight and analysis Meaning their club i mean. Also saying the verdict is wrong. Shows how thick they are. They're defending their club, loyally, and perhaps mistakenly. There were many elements that caused the tragedy, and all of varying degrees of culpability. The lies, and deceit, and bullshit are indefensible though and have caused untold suffering over the years. We all make mistakes. Sometimes each and every one of us may have to hold our hands up and admit it. Duckinfield and South Yorkshire Police should hang their heads in shame.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 27, 2016 7:38:58 GMT 1
I'm sure Sheffield Wednesday fans are innocent Nick .. thanks for your continued high levels of insight and analysis Meaning their club i mean. Also saying the verdict is wrong. Shows how thick they are. Maybe they could borrow a copy of the report once Marcus d has finished with it . Read it and then spout an opinion
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Post by detox on Apr 27, 2016 9:20:11 GMT 1
Meaning their club i mean. Also saying the verdict is wrong. Shows how thick they are. They're defending their club, loyally, and perhaps mistakenly. There were many elements that caused the tragedy, and all of varying degrees of culpability. The lies, and deceit, and bullshit are indefensible though and have caused untold suffering over the years. We all make mistakes. Sometimes each and every one of us may have to hold our hands up and admit it. Duckinfield and South Yorkshire Police should hang their heads in shame. more like it..
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Post by Lard Buttie on Apr 27, 2016 9:24:22 GMT 1
Andy Burnham should get a big a massive pat on the back for the role he played in yesterdays verdict. An MP with a conscience - a rare virtue these days
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 9:28:49 GMT 1
Andy Burnham should get a big a massive pat on the back for the role he played in yesterdays verdict. An MP with a conscience - a rare virtue these days Steve Rotheram too. Another MP who wouldn't give in. He was there that day.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 9:35:42 GMT 1
Andy Burnham should get a big a massive pat on the back for the role he played in yesterdays verdict. An MP with a conscience - a rare virtue these days Steve Rotheram too. Another MP who wouldn't give in. He was there that day. And Boris Johnson... oh wait... Love to see the Tory boys on here defend those comments!
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 27, 2016 9:37:16 GMT 1
Steve Rotheram too. Another MP who wouldn't give in. He was there that day. And Boris Johnson... oh wait... Love to see the Tory boys on here defend those comments! Why would they ? They agree with them
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 9:43:14 GMT 1
For people who have fought for justice against what have been proven to be bare faced lies by the authorities and the higher ups, I think they've earned the right to take whatever course of action they need to gain closure...
Those on here still trying to ignore the facts & turn it into a debate around the morals of Liverpool supporters might want to remember they've fought for 27 yrs for this, had to get original inquests quashed & no doubt had to fight other injunctions served.
All of that just to hear one Police officer tell the truth after all this time...
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 27, 2016 9:52:42 GMT 1
For people who have fought for justice against what have been proven to be bare faced lies by the authorities and the higher ups, I think they've earned the right to take whatever course of action they need to gain closure... Those on here still trying to ignore the facts & turn it into a debate around the morals of Liverpool supporters might want to remember they've fought for 27 yrs for this, had to get original inquests quashed & no doubt had to fight other injunctions served. All of that just to hear one Police officer tell the truth after all this time... Truth and justice.. a simple concept . But folk on here actually criticise the family's of the dead for seeking it . It really is staggering .. if it was me I'd leave it there .. jailing Duckenfield serves no purpose.. he will rot in hell alongside his Freemason cronies .
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 9:53:53 GMT 1
Boris did apologise in 2012. www.theguardian.com/football/2012/sep/13/boris-johnson-apologises-hillsborough-articleI think the fundamental problem with apologies long after the event though, is that they're not that well publicised, in comparison to the publicity of the original event. We've all said stuff we regret but for the stuff that the likes of Johnson came out with 15 yrs after the event, the Sun printed at the time & Bernard Inghams take on things in the 90's, there has to be some motivating factor for them to say these things...
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