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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 10:30:32 GMT 1
I share your concerns. I think the cover-up was deplorable, but I am not sure it is fair to blame the Police entirely in view of the actions of many of the fans. The rushing and pushing was a big factor (some fans without tickets, too), although obviously the fans at the back didn't realise what was happening inside the ground, and mismanagement contributed to the crush. That isn't what the inquest jury has concluded after two years listening to the evidence The Jury had to answer 'Yes' or 'No' to 14 questions. There were no shades of grey. Legal processes do not guarantee the truth in any matter. Who wrote the questions? How did the judge direct the Jury? Sometimes innocent people hang. Sometimes the guilty go free. The legal process is imperfect. It is much easier to accept a legal decision when you agree with the verdict. The Jury were not asked questions like, on a scale of 10, do you think the behaviour of some Liverpool fans contributed to the tragedy? 1 for not at all, and 10 for totally. They had to answer, very simply, Yes or No, whatever reservations they may have had, if any. EDIT FOR GRAMMAR
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Post by explorer on Apr 27, 2016 10:34:43 GMT 1
Really? All 96? How many a day? How long did they last, 6 weeks? So much if this has become folklore it's untrue. Don't be a dick. You have your own opinion on what caused the tragedy...but ffs shut up now, especially today. However Dalglish going to the funerals is fact. No 'opinion' needed. "Dalglish helped ensure the club was represented at all of the fans' funerals and attended many of them in person" according to the BBC. Kenny himself in his autobiography states that he didn't know how many he attended. I don't want in any way to belittle what he did, it was truly amazing and beyond what most of us would be able to stand. However, stating that he attended all 96 as a "fact' would appear to be incorrect.
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Post by mids on Apr 27, 2016 10:48:53 GMT 1
Don't be a dick. You have your own opinion on what caused the tragedy...but ffs shut up now, especially today. However Dalglish going to the funerals is fact. No 'opinion' needed. "Dalglish helped ensure the club was represented at all of the fans' funerals and attended many of them in person" according to the BBC. Kenny himself in his autobiography states that he didn't know how many he attended. I don't want in any way to belittle what he did, it was truly amazing and beyond what most of us would be able to stand. However, stating that he attended all 96 as a "fact' would appear to be incorrect. Fair point. He attended many and ensured each funeral was attended by club representatives, and the stress finally caught up with him. However, of all the 'facts' stated on this thread by some I think the one you've rectified is very unimportant.
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Post by impact on Apr 27, 2016 13:14:49 GMT 1
And Boris Johnson... oh wait... Love to see the Tory boys on here defend those comments! Why would they ? They agree with them Remind me which party granted the inquest?
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 27, 2016 13:18:30 GMT 1
Why would they ? They agree with them Remind me which party granted the inquest? Relevance to what Boris Johnson said being ?
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Post by impact on Apr 27, 2016 13:32:44 GMT 1
Remind me which party granted the inquest? Relevance to what Boris Johnson said being ? If all the tories thought that it was the fans' fault and the police were scapegoats I can't see them granting an inquest to disprove it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 13:37:46 GMT 1
Relevance to what Boris Johnson said being ? If all the tories thought that it was the fans' fault and the police were scapegoats I can't see them granting an inquest to disprove it. What option did they have after the previous Government released all the evidence and an independent panel released its report?
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Apr 27, 2016 13:46:21 GMT 1
Relevance to what Boris Johnson said being ? If all the tories thought that it was the fans' fault and the police were scapegoats I can't see them granting an inquest to disprove it. Not sure who the other guy was on about but I was on about the dick heads on here
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 27, 2016 13:54:04 GMT 1
For people who have fought for justice against what have been proven to be bare faced lies by the authorities and the higher ups, I think they've earned the right to take whatever course of action they need to gain closure... Those on here still trying to ignore the facts & turn it into a debate around the morals of Liverpool supporters might want to remember they've fought for 27 yrs for this, had to get original inquests quashed & no doubt had to fight other injunctions served. All of that just to hear one Police officer tell the truth after all this time... we knew a long time ago he was lying to cover his arse.. what we have never got to and wont now, he is in the first throws of dementia, is who first instructed him from above and when to begin the cover up. It began very quickly and was widespread far too fast for it to have been himself. The coverage it go so quickly was huge and immediately blotted out any counter arguments or views, it was carried on through an inquest and for a number of years after the event. It finally fell apart but the scope of it and the organisation behind it surely means it was started and continued by persons far above a policeman who had just made an absolute bollox which caused a tragedy. He would then and very much now have been 'hung out to dry' if there hadnt been significant intervention from very powerful people.. In regards to the supporters involved/caught up outside and then inside, in a crowd scene it may not take many to turn that into a potentially very dangerous place to be. There may be some who cant sleep at night. I really do hope that the search for those who organised and allowed the game, knowing what they obviously did beforehand and those that organised, so quickly and efficiently, a cover up using dead people as their focus, goes on and is successful. I dont care wether they are dead or not, some will have died with unblemished records or may still be lauded, its a duty of the system to get to the 'full truth'..
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Post by araucaria on Apr 27, 2016 14:16:04 GMT 1
At 3.15pm on 15 April 1989, Duckenfield told a FA official called Kirten that the outside gates had been broken and ticketless fans had rushed in, causing casualties. At 3.25pm, Grotty Motty told the nation a similar tale.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 14:17:33 GMT 1
If all the tories thought that it was the fans' fault and the police were scapegoats I can't see them granting an inquest to disprove it. Not sure who the other guy was on about but I was on about the dick heads on here As was I.
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Post by Manx Terrier on Apr 27, 2016 14:37:48 GMT 1
The coveruperers will escape in the present blameless culture in which no one is ever to blame for anything. Whatever monumental balls up occur from time to time how often is anyone individually blamed, named, disciplined or sacked. All that is said is "Lessons will be learned from this" or "We want to move on and draw a line under this".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 15:01:11 GMT 1
A consequence to the rest of British football clubs (and their fans) is of course that the changes implemented in the last 27 years – whilst going a long way to eradicate the potential for another disaster like this – have meant we've bore the brunt of overkill regulations and its given police and stewards carte blanche to treat fans like shit all in the name "of safety".
The theory that it is inherently unsafe to stand at stadia, or other ridiculous things, masking the fact that poor facilities and crowd control directly led to those people dying, not football fans because they're football fans.
Hopefully no longer will the powers that be be able to fall back on sham reports and theories, so the British game can progress safely in a way it needs to.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 27, 2016 15:28:17 GMT 1
A consequence to the rest of British football clubs (and their fans) is of course that the changes implemented in the last 27 years – whilst going a long way to eradicate the potential for another disaster like this – have meant we've bore the brunt of overkill regulations and its given police and stewards carte blanche to treat fans like shit all in the name "of safety". The theory that it is inherently unsafe to stand at stadia, or other ridiculous things, masking the fact that poor facilities and crowd control directly led to those people dying, not football fans because they're football fans. Hopefully no longer will the powers that be be able to fall back on sham reports and theories, so the British game can progress safely in a way it needs to. once in 40 odd years have I been treated badly at a football match by the 'authorities'.. stewards at an away match..thankfully I was with 3 police officers(all huge football fans who go to games and also run quite a few of the games on the 'other side')... dont fall into the trap of treating all on either 'side' as the same.. We have a massive blame culture ongoing and getting worse so thats how we have come to the situation we are in.. everyone has to cover their arse first, long before anything 'happens'... circumstances changing quickly and unforseen by any reasonably thinking person are no longer accepted, someone is to blame..
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Post by space hardware on Apr 27, 2016 15:59:07 GMT 1
If all the tories thought that it was the fans' fault and the police were scapegoats I can't see them granting an inquest to disprove it. What option did they have after the previous Government released all the evidence and an independent panel released its report? Let's not forget Labour were in power from 1997 till 2010 and basically did nothing.
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Post by Barbieterrier on Apr 27, 2016 16:21:48 GMT 1
Don't be a dick. You have your own opinion on what caused the tragedy...but ffs shut up now, especially today. However Dalglish going to the funerals is fact. No 'opinion' needed. "Dalglish helped ensure the club was represented at all of the fans' funerals and attended many of them in person" according to the BBC. Kenny himself in his autobiography states that he didn't know how many he attended. I don't want in any way to belittle what he did, it was truly amazing and beyond what most of us would be able to stand. However, stating that he attended all 96 as a "fact' would appear to be incorrect. Imagine how emotionally draining that would be to him. Men, women and children crushed to death? Massive respect to him.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 27, 2016 16:31:25 GMT 1
"Dalglish helped ensure the club was represented at all of the fans' funerals and attended many of them in person" according to the BBC. Kenny himself in his autobiography states that he didn't know how many he attended. I don't want in any way to belittle what he did, it was truly amazing and beyond what most of us would be able to stand. However, stating that he attended all 96 as a "fact' would appear to be incorrect. Imagine how emotionally draining that would be to him. Men, women and children crushed to death? Massive respect to him. It visibly took its toll on Dalglish.. Liverpool players were asked to go to each home of the deceased, thats a tough call...these are footballers and grief can make people do all sorts of things..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 16:31:51 GMT 1
A consequence to the rest of British football clubs (and their fans) is of course that the changes implemented in the last 27 years – whilst going a long way to eradicate the potential for another disaster like this – have meant we've bore the brunt of overkill regulations and its given police and stewards carte blanche to treat fans like shit all in the name "of safety". The theory that it is inherently unsafe to stand at stadia, or other ridiculous things, masking the fact that poor facilities and crowd control directly led to those people dying, not football fans because they're football fans. Hopefully no longer will the powers that be be able to fall back on sham reports and theories, so the British game can progress safely in a way it needs to. once in 40 odd years have I been treated badly at a football match by the 'authorities'.. stewards at an away match..thankfully I was with 3 police officers(all huge football fans who go to games and also run quite a few of the games on the 'other side')... dont fall into the trap of treating all on either 'side' as the same.. We have a massive blame culture ongoing and getting worse so thats how we have come to the situation we are in.. everyone has to cover their arse first, long before anything 'happens'... circumstances changing quickly and unforseen by any reasonably thinking person are no longer accepted, someone is to blame.. Galph I respect pretty much all you post but it's obvious over the last few days you have a very pro/in defence of the police approach to subjects like this. If you've experienced only one incident then you're either very lucky or (as I suspect) you've got blinkers on. Stewards are overzealous pricks up and down the country week-in-week-out, and the police stand by and let it happen. You only have to go on Youtube to see some of the disgusting and heavy-handed police behaviour towards fans of all clubs, completely unwarranted in lots of cases. We still have a terrible hangover from the 70's and 80's whereby we've got 15 rows of segregation, ridiculous exit strategies and stupid ideas about where away fans can and can't be placed. Most of these regulations lack any common sense and for too long it's being too easy to fall back to the Hillsborough stuff to justify it. People who weren't even alive suffer the repercussions of things as if they were in someway responsible. WYP are far behind other forces in handling football matches, both in their planning and tolerance. What option did they have after the previous Government released all the evidence and an independent panel released its report? Let's not forget Labour were in power from 1997 till 2010 and basically did nothing. I don't give a shit either side; you were championing the Tories for allowing an inquest, I'm saying the release of all the evidence by the previous (in this case Labour) Government left whoever was in charge following on no choice. Otherwise it would have been a true miscarriage of justice in the face of the new report and its findings.
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Post by space hardware on Apr 27, 2016 16:46:41 GMT 1
once in 40 odd years have I been treated badly at a football match by the 'authorities'.. stewards at an away match..thankfully I was with 3 police officers(all huge football fans who go to games and also run quite a few of the games on the 'other side')... dont fall into the trap of treating all on either 'side' as the same.. We have a massive blame culture ongoing and getting worse so thats how we have come to the situation we are in.. everyone has to cover their arse first, long before anything 'happens'... circumstances changing quickly and unforseen by any reasonably thinking person are no longer accepted, someone is to blame.. Galph I respect pretty much all you post but it's obvious over the last few days you have a very pro/in defence of the police approach to subjects like this. If you've experienced only one incident then you're either very lucky or (as I suspect) you've got blinkers on. Stewards are overzealous pricks up and down the country week-in-week-out, and the police stand by and let it happen. You only have to go on Youtube to see some of the disgusting and heavy-handed police behaviour towards fans of all clubs, completely unwarranted in lots of cases. We still have a terrible hangover from the 70's and 80's whereby we've got 15 rows of segregation, ridiculous exit strategies and stupid ideas about where away fans can and can't be placed. Most of these regulations lack any common sense and for too long it's being too easy to fall back to the Hillsborough stuff to justify it. People who weren't even alive suffer the repercussions of things as if they were in someway responsible. WYP are far behind other forces in handling football matches, both in their planning and tolerance. Let's not forget Labour were in power from 1997 till 2010 and basically did nothing. I don't give a shit either side; you were championing the Tories for allowing an inquest, I'm saying the release of all the evidence by the previous (in this case Labour) Government left whoever was in charge following on no choice. Otherwise it would have been a true miscarriage of justice in the face of the new report and its findings. I wasn't championing any political party.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 27, 2016 17:04:18 GMT 1
once in 40 odd years have I been treated badly at a football match by the 'authorities'.. stewards at an away match..thankfully I was with 3 police officers(all huge football fans who go to games and also run quite a few of the games on the 'other side')... dont fall into the trap of treating all on either 'side' as the same.. We have a massive blame culture ongoing and getting worse so thats how we have come to the situation we are in.. everyone has to cover their arse first, long before anything 'happens'... circumstances changing quickly and unforseen by any reasonably thinking person are no longer accepted, someone is to blame.. Galph I respect pretty much all you post but it's obvious over the last few days you have a very pro/in defence of the police approach to subjects like this. If you've experienced only one incident then you're either very lucky or (as I suspect) you've got blinkers on. Stewards are overzealous pricks up and down the country week-in-week-out, and the police stand by and let it happen. You only have to go on Youtube to see some of the disgusting and heavy-handed police behaviour towards fans of all clubs, completely unwarranted in lots of cases. We still have a terrible hangover from the 70's and 80's whereby we've got 15 rows of segregation, ridiculous exit strategies and stupid ideas about where away fans can and can't be placed. Most of these regulations lack any common sense and for too long it's being too easy to fall back to the Hillsborough stuff to justify it. People who weren't even alive suffer the repercussions of things as if they were in someway responsible. WYP are far behind other forces in handling football matches, both in their planning and tolerance. Let's not forget Labour were in power from 1997 till 2010 and basically did nothing. I don't give a shit either side; you were championing the Tories for allowing an inquest, I'm saying the release of all the evidence by the previous (in this case Labour) Government left whoever was in charge following on no choice. Otherwise it would have been a true miscarriage of justice in the face of the new report and its findings. smithfield.. you get the police and many other public bodies that the prevailing culture deserves. If there are 2 ways of doing something then always best to err on the side that could give you the least repurcussions, we had this for many, many years till the current national outcry against child abuse. The police can act but they are not the arbitors of the law and they are certainly not now the policy makers on what the police concentrate their resources on. The CPS decide charges and wether investigations are proceeded with to court etc, which is something that always make me smile and be annoyed at the same time, when 'Police did not take further action or Police did not take the allegations seriously' etc.. If you have had bad experiences with the police at football then fair enough..honestly do you get grief very often or is it in the total number of games you attend, very , very occasionally?? simply put, at times you dont know what has gone on before you became involved or sometimes you met a 'wrong un', that will never change, its human nature. The stewards who gave me a right load of shit, were one offs for me and I was genuinely annoyed and amazed at the attitude and language, it was over nothing at all. Been to most of the grounds in England/wales and found no problems with police/stewards and home supporters, is it just me? The 80s aside, that was just a bad time to be a supporter, unless you liked that sort of thing. Sometimes the police/stewarding reflects the intelligence leading up to a game, its not always correct but is avaliable to the prosecution if the game goes badly wrong and the intelligence wasnt followed up to the hilt. Over policing then looks quite odd to the average supporter. Its not a science and fast moving public order situations will always be a challenge and even more so with social media.. Im not defending the police officer in charge on that day, he clearly made lots of errors and then folded when pressure was brought to bear to lie and cover it up. Thats the unforgiveable part... Since then the policing changed but the fact a police officer was reprimanded and fined last year for not being able to tell that a 15 year old who was 6ft 3 tall and weighed 16 stones who had assaulted 2 lifeguards quite badly, was suffering from a mental health condition that affects 1 person in 100,000 shows the problems faced. A mental health expert with 20 years experience stated he couldnt have spotted it without a few hours of talking to the lad..given his size, his aggression and two good sized lifeguards spark out, the officer didnt have the time to chat or the training to spot the problem. Still found guilty of unneccessary force, he handcuffed him.. I kid you not and thats happening everyday somewhere across this green and pleasant land.. You make it hard and you get a good response, make it impossible at times and you get what you deserve.. rant over, people make mistakes, lying about them is the unacceptable thing, lying about dead people moves it into the 'disgusting' league..last post on it for me..
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Post by Barbieterrier on Apr 27, 2016 17:23:11 GMT 1
Imagine how emotionally draining that would be to him. Men, women and children crushed to death? Massive respect to him. It visibly took its toll on Dalglish.. Liverpool players were asked to go to each home of the deceased, thats a tough call...these are footballers and grief can make people do all sorts of things.. Agreed. Massive thing on their shoulders given they are paid to play football and were probably really confused at the time as to what on earth was going on. IMO it was a tragedy that could have easily been avoided. Obviously Duckenfield didn't have enough experience with crowd control to be in charge of that day. It's not just about crowd behaviour as we've seen as many fans go to enjoy the game. But even today there still seems to be a culture of you're a football fan and you're treated almost as cattle so I wonder where crowd safety lies in the list of priorities. I guess for me especially at away games at the turnstiles I will have had a sherry or two and take it for granted that I am safe. After all isn't that part of what we pay for? Crowd control outside the ground on that day would have been essential yet video footage seems to show it as more or less non existent. Checking tickets rather than letting whole world and his wife in through them gates. Then once the gates are opened no direction to where it clearly was quieter. But to me the cover up and the blame the fans took for being drunken hooligans is just not acceptable. How about The Sun publishing an apology? Like I said the whole thing makes me run absolutely cold. You make a mistake - own up. All this time to admit the police cocked up is not acceptable. But shows they close ranks when the chips are down and there's not a jot you can really do about it at the time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 18:32:02 GMT 1
The words root & branch reform are yet to be spoken on this. That will be the next thing, but the ingrained behaviours of many public bodies often take generations to change on that sort of level.
There's probably stacks more to come out on this now, the role of Irvine Patnick shouldn't be under played, but then he died in 2012 with a Knighthood to his name. The suspension of the current Chief Insp is somewhat of a damp squib given he's due to retire in Nov, a suitable scapegoat who'll drift away on a full pension.
None of this will ever bring back the poor buggers from that day, nor help the mental state of their families & campaigners. But imagine if there was some recourse whereby you can bring leadership/establishment figures to book by witholding gold plated pensions etc. It would certainly make them think twice about their behaviours if they realised the consequence of their actions might result in them living out their retirement devoid of the generous pension provision.
Not suggesting the authorities don't have a difficult job BTW, particularly those at the coal face, but this pretty much proves unequivocally that there are some public bodies where you rise to the top on your ability to protect your organisations reputation, irrespective of how many other folk you chuck overboard...
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Post by explorer on Apr 27, 2016 18:33:52 GMT 1
"Dalglish helped ensure the club was represented at all of the fans' funerals and attended many of them in person" according to the BBC. Kenny himself in his autobiography states that he didn't know how many he attended. I don't want in any way to belittle what he did, it was truly amazing and beyond what most of us would be able to stand. However, stating that he attended all 96 as a "fact' would appear to be incorrect. Fair point. He attended many and ensured each funeral was attended by club representatives, and the stress finally caught up with him. However, of all the 'facts' stated on this thread by some I think the one you've rectified is very unimportant. True Mids. However, it is one 'fact' less to argue about - sorry discuss - on this thread now (hopefully).
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Post by galpharm2400 on Apr 27, 2016 18:41:35 GMT 1
It visibly took its toll on Dalglish.. Liverpool players were asked to go to each home of the deceased, thats a tough call...these are footballers and grief can make people do all sorts of things.. Agreed. Massive thing on their shoulders given they are paid to play football and were probably really confused at the time as to what on earth was going on. IMO it was a tragedy that could have easily been avoided. Obviously Duckenfield didn't have enough experience with crowd control to be in charge of that day. It's not just about crowd behaviour as we've seen as many fans go to enjoy the game. But even today there still seems to be a culture of you're a football fan and you're treated almost as cattle so I wonder where crowd safety lies in the list of priorities. I guess for me especially at away games at the turnstiles I will have had a sherry or two and take it for granted that I am safe. After all isn't that part of what we pay for? Crowd control outside the ground on that day would have been essential yet video footage seems to show it as more or less non existent. Checking tickets rather than letting whole world and his wife in through them gates. Then once the gates are opened no direction to where it clearly was quieter. But to me the cover up and the blame the fans took for being drunken hooligans is just not acceptable. How about The Sun publishing an apology? Like I said the whole thing makes me run absolutely cold. You make a mistake - own up. All this time to admit the police cocked up is not acceptable. But shows they close ranks when the chips are down and there's not a jot you can really do about it at the time. barbie,, the police can close ranks as quick and as firmly as they like.. people above them with much more power and influence took this over early on and the cover up began. you can always say that police officers should have spoken out etc, job, livelihood and family on the line? thats a different question.. The politicians today on all sides will be major players in cover ups and will be complicit in many falsehoods to preserve or enhance their careers but the awful truth is that many of them know where the cover up went up to and who was involved but now know that it will be almost impossible to get to them. Their speeches today were another slap in the face of justice. The police who will have been under pressure for 27 years to continue the cover up will be hung out to dry and those above them who ordered the cover up and facilitated its length and breadth will never be named.. A few police officers from back then and one now will be the only fall out. We all knew years ago about the cover up and the lies and inconsistencies, the verdict would have been the same then as now. It smells badly of the time is right to go ahead, all our skeletons in the cupboard are covered... I may come across as a conspiracy theorist but I personally believe all the people who spoke in parliament today would conspire at the drop of a hat if it meant stopping them getting in the shit or forwarding their careers. Remember how long and hard they fought and hid an 'expenses claims' investigation..??
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 20:58:01 GMT 1
Agreed. Massive thing on their shoulders given they are paid to play football and were probably really confused at the time as to what on earth was going on. IMO it was a tragedy that could have easily been avoided. Obviously Duckenfield didn't have enough experience with crowd control to be in charge of that day. It's not just about crowd behaviour as we've seen as many fans go to enjoy the game. But even today there still seems to be a culture of you're a football fan and you're treated almost as cattle so I wonder where crowd safety lies in the list of priorities. I guess for me especially at away games at the turnstiles I will have had a sherry or two and take it for granted that I am safe. After all isn't that part of what we pay for? Crowd control outside the ground on that day would have been essential yet video footage seems to show it as more or less non existent. Checking tickets rather than letting whole world and his wife in through them gates. Then once the gates are opened no direction to where it clearly was quieter. But to me the cover up and the blame the fans took for being drunken hooligans is just not acceptable. How about The Sun publishing an apology? Like I said the whole thing makes me run absolutely cold. You make a mistake - own up. All this time to admit the police cocked up is not acceptable. But shows they close ranks when the chips are down and there's not a jot you can really do about it at the time. barbie,, the police can close ranks as quick and as firmly as they like.. people above them with much more power and influence took this over early on and the cover up began. you can always say that police officers should have spoken out etc, job, livelihood and family on the line? thats a different question.. The politicians today on all sides will be major players in cover ups and will be complicit in many falsehoods to preserve or enhance their careers but the awful truth is that many of them know where the cover up went up to and who was involved but now know that it will be almost impossible to get to them. Their speeches today were another slap in the face of justice. The police who will have been under pressure for 27 years to continue the cover up will be hung out to dry and those above them who ordered the cover up and facilitated its length and breadth will never be named.. A few police officers from back then and one now will be the only fall out. We all knew years ago about the cover up and the lies and inconsistencies, the verdict would have been the same then as now. It smells badly of the time is right to go ahead, all our skeletons in the cupboard are covered... I may come across as a conspiracy theorist but I personally believe all the people who spoke in parliament today would conspire at the drop of a hat if it meant stopping them getting in the shit or forwarding their careers. Remember how long and hard they fought and hid an 'expenses claims' investigation..?? How you draw the conclusion that Duckinfield lying within minutes adout the cuase being drunken ticketless fans forcing entry, when he knew he had authorised opening the gate himself, and his perpetuated dishonesty thereafter on politicians just beggers belief!
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Post by artysid on Apr 27, 2016 20:59:23 GMT 1
Agreed. Massive thing on their shoulders given they are paid to play football and were probably really confused at the time as to what on earth was going on. IMO it was a tragedy that could have easily been avoided. Obviously Duckenfield didn't have enough experience with crowd control to be in charge of that day. It's not just about crowd behaviour as we've seen as many fans go to enjoy the game. But even today there still seems to be a culture of you're a football fan and you're treated almost as cattle so I wonder where crowd safety lies in the list of priorities. I guess for me especially at away games at the turnstiles I will have had a sherry or two and take it for granted that I am safe. After all isn't that part of what we pay for? Crowd control outside the ground on that day would have been essential yet video footage seems to show it as more or less non existent. Checking tickets rather than letting whole world and his wife in through them gates. Then once the gates are opened no direction to where it clearly was quieter. But to me the cover up and the blame the fans took for being drunken hooligans is just not acceptable. How about The Sun publishing an apology? Like I said the whole thing makes me run absolutely cold. You make a mistake - own up. All this time to admit the police cocked up is not acceptable. But shows they close ranks when the chips are down and there's not a jot you can really do about it at the time. barbie,, the police can close ranks as quick and as firmly as they like.. people above them with much more power and influence took this over early on and the cover up began. you can always say that police officers should have spoken out etc, job, livelihood and family on the line? thats a different question.. The politicians today on all sides will be major players in cover ups and will be complicit in many falsehoods to preserve or enhance their careers but the awful truth is that many of them know where the cover up went up to and who was involved but now know that it will be almost impossible to get to them. Their speeches today were another slap in the face of justice. The police who will have been under pressure for 27 years to continue the cover up will be hung out to dry and those above them who ordered the cover up and facilitated its length and breadth will never be named.. A few police officers from back then and one now will be the only fall out. We all knew years ago about the cover up and the lies and inconsistencies, the verdict would have been the same then as now. It smells badly of the time is right to go ahead, all our skeletons in the cupboard are covered... I may come across as a conspiracy theorist but I personally believe all the people who spoke in parliament today would conspire at the drop of a hat if it meant stopping them getting in the shit or forwarding their careers. Remember how long and hard they fought and hid an 'expenses claims' investigation..?? Galph You've hinted several times to a cover up that, went much higher than the police service. Indeed the way I read your numerous posts you would seem to see the Police Officers who appear to have been all too ready to participate in the cover up, as scapegoats. Are you in possession of facts that support the existence of a cover up orchestrated at a level higher than the police authority, or is this just speculation?
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Post by thrice on Apr 27, 2016 21:28:48 GMT 1
Good coverage on radio five live this evening.
The unlawful killing verdict opens up a whole host of potential scenarios moving forwards but I'm struggling to see or hear anything truly ground breaking or new.
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Post by Lard Buttie on Apr 27, 2016 21:46:49 GMT 1
I am correctly corrected about Dalgliesh.
As mentioned the 5 live programme tonigh from 7.30pm was mesmerising for both good & bad reasons.
One of the most shocking things I heard was about the 'mortuary' gymnasium where 12 dead bodies were sent back to from hospital after they died. The same mortuary where CID set up there investigation.
Seconds after identifying their loved ones dead bodies they were interviewed by CID in the same room.
Not especially a contentious decision but the lack of empathy and understanding is despicable.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 22:10:43 GMT 1
Cough, cough... No myths?
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Post by Lard Buttie on Apr 27, 2016 22:12:35 GMT 1
Cough, cough... No myths? I know, I know. You win 1 nil.
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