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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Sept 6, 2017 12:09:12 GMT 1
I cannot see any logic in downgrading to a lower category. Sure, it'd save money, but the odds on finding and developing young talent good enough for the first team would surely be lengthened. Bite the bullet and expand to category 1 (major financial and organisational investment) or close it down, I'd say.
Perhaps Town could take advantage of their current situation and establish some sort of formal relationship with another club in Europe to nurture youngsters etc?
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Sept 6, 2017 12:09:46 GMT 1
Personally I don't think Town have enough scouts. My son was picked up by Man U, when he was 5 years old. We were living in Blackpool at the time, so it just proves that these youngsters are out there in the local community, but the local clubs don't have the scouting network like the big clubs. Surely Town should get more scouts to find the talented youngsters, not just around the local area, but farther afield. To me, there's no point doing something if you are not giving it 100%. From the youngest kids in the academy, they should be training the Wagner way. His style of football has jettisoned the club to new heights. Can we get someone in to run the academy who is successful at another club? Also, I believe that clubs should be only allowed a certain amount of academy players in a season. They should not be allowed to bring in huge amounts of players and then loan them out like Chelsea do. What should Chelsea do with them when they get to 20 and cant get in the first team?
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Post by mrg on Sept 6, 2017 12:10:55 GMT 1
If this is true, very short sighted. The same as was the case with his choice of Managers, Hoyle doesn't seem to be picking the right one to lead the Academy but he will and things will then fall in to place. All we need is one Player every now and then to make it in to the first Team. As a Premier League Club this Player will potentially be worth £10m+ and if we sell them. It pays for the running of the Academy for a couple of years. If we get it right, there is no reason why more than one Player cannot come through the ranks. Not sure what they are doing at Chelsea Academy wise but as we know, they have a wealth of young talent that they haven't had to buy and is worth significant money. As well as having great facilities etc they aggressively focus on the best talent and steal it from clubs like West Brom (Izzy). No doubt a lot of the others were in a similar position at other clubs before they were scouted at 14/15. That's the foucs Town will need to put in if they upgrade. Great facilities, great opportunities AND an ability to grab the best talent before they are 16.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 12:15:27 GMT 1
People keep mentioning Billing but he was signed as a 16 year old so relatively speaking he has nothing to do with the academy.
The bottom line is that other than J. Williams (who is very decent by all accounts) - we haven't had a decent player come through since Stead.
It seems quite sad but something is very wrong with the academy. So if Hoyle thinks best to get shut, I won't be too bothered.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 12:21:31 GMT 1
People keep mentioning Billing but he was signed as a 16 year old so relatively speaking he has nothing to do with the academy. The bottom line is that other than J. Williams (who is very decent by all accounts) - we haven't had a decent player come through since Stead. It seems quite sad but something is very wrong with the academy. So if Hoyle thinks best to get shut, I won't be too bothered. Hunt, Smithies?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 12:23:37 GMT 1
People keep mentioning Billing but he was signed as a 16 year old so relatively speaking he has nothing to do with the academy. The bottom line is that other than J. Williams (who is very decent by all accounts) - we haven't had a decent player come through since Stead. It seems quite sad but something is very wrong with the academy. So if Hoyle thinks best to get shut, I won't be too bothered. Hunt, Smithies? Was Smithies before Stead? Both fair enough either way. But we are still going back a good 8 or 9 years! It's pretty pathetic.
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Post by JonsonClarkParis on Sept 6, 2017 12:32:51 GMT 1
I used to coach a goalkeeper a couple of years back and for his age he was unbelievably good and everyone was chasing him from Man Utd to City Liverpool, he chose town over all of them because it wasn't far from where he lived and he was a town fan. He's now left us and is now playing for Leeds Utd and is there number 1 keeper for his age, another one we've lost out on to a rival. I just don't know what they are doing down there at times. We've lost absolutely loads of youngsters to Sheffield united too from this years under 8s
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Post by bluedogs, Esq. on Sept 6, 2017 12:41:53 GMT 1
Sad news if it happens. The excitement the kids get when a town scout is watching their game is priceless to them.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Sept 6, 2017 12:45:55 GMT 1
Sad news if it happens. The excitement the kids get when a town scout is watching their game is priceless to them. I remember that excitement as a kid. If there were ever more than 3 or 4 watching the game and you didn't recognise them. Must be a Town scout. More likely a dirty old bloke in a raincoat!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 13:13:05 GMT 1
Isn't he?? Of course he bloody well is. He simply wants to see some value for his monetary investment - and he's correct. The players and parents need to up their game and if they're good enough they'll produce the goods - be it with us or elsewhere. I'm not sure exactly how it works with the intake of kids.. at the lowest level (under 7?) what do we do invite 50 or so kids and pick the best 15 or so, then if they're ok they will all progress through the years ? meanwhile I guess we add other kids at various age groups as and when they seem to be available or good enough..to keep the numbers up so we can field a team at each level ? The point is, we're taking lads in so we can have a team at each age level, but how many are actually just there to make up the numbers ? The issue I guess is that it's probably all of them barring three to five across all the age groups at any one time. The problem is we probably don't necesssarily know which ones they are. At what age did Jack Hunt stand out (if he did) from his peers?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 13:20:17 GMT 1
The coaches are not the best down there tbh, they don't treat the kids great at all. I know 3 or 4 under 9 10 and 11s who have chosen our rivals over us due to the fact they don't enjoy it and farr better development and coaching. There is a number of unhappy parents currently still there That is a shame to hear and would be one of the fundamental reasons the academy is unsuccessful. They need to look after the kids and the parents. There's an element of both ways in this. I've heard there's a lot more ass smoke blowing from the coaches at Leeds, Man City and Liverpool. If coaches are telling you little Johnny will be playing in the Champions League if he carries on working hard, of course you're going to be happier in that moment. But they cut players much more aggressively than we do (they take on more in each age group). Is that a better life lesson than the reality that is 95% of the kids who get the opportunity to train at an academy are never going to play above District league level?? I know Liverpool do a thing which seems a bit naughty where they take on 80 to 100 kids for a "trial" over summer, and then tell them to go back to junior football and monitor them and invite them back again the next summer....it saves them from becoming "committed" contractually to the kids, but keeps them on the radar if they happen to have a sudden steep upwards development)
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TTCMatt
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Post by TTCMatt on Sept 6, 2017 13:27:57 GMT 1
Personally I don't think Town have enough scouts. My son was picked up by Man U, when he was 5 years old. We were living in Blackpool at the time, so it just proves that these youngsters are out there in the local community, but the local clubs don't have the scouting network like the big clubs. Surely Town should get more scouts to find the talented youngsters, not just around the local area, but farther afield. To me, there's no point doing something if you are not giving it 100%. From the youngest kids in the academy, they should be training the Wagner way. His style of football has jettisoned the club to new heights. Can we get someone in to run the academy who is successful at another club? Also, I believe that clubs should be only allowed a certain amount of academy players in a season. They should not be allowed to bring in huge amounts of players and then loan them out like Chelsea do. Do you know how many scouts Town have? As per your other point, Man City signed close to 50 u9's last year.
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irverino
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Post by irverino on Sept 6, 2017 13:50:15 GMT 1
I remember Frazier Campbell signing for Man Utd on his 10th birthday, his dad used to play football for us, he could do 200 knock-ups then, Town had him 1st but seemed slow to act. Cameron Jerome was also at Town before Cardiff signed him, both were sold for 3m+, their are others, most of them played in Sunday Junior league.
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Sept 6, 2017 13:53:10 GMT 1
Sad news if it happens. The excitement the kids get when a town scout is watching their game is priceless to them. I remember that excitement as a kid. If there were ever more than 3 or 4 watching the game and you didn't recognise them. Must be a Town scout. More likely a dirty old bloke in a raincoat! I got told by the PE teacher at Batley Grammar School that a scout from Burnley came to watch me a couple of times (I was a left winger with an eye for goal - better than VLP!). I think he had a dirty raincoat - de rigeur for old scouts, obviously.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 13:57:09 GMT 1
I cannot see any logic in downgrading to a lower category. Sure, it'd save money, but the odds on finding and developing young talent good enough for the first team would surely be lengthened. Bite the bullet and expand to category 1 (major financial and organisational investment) or close it down, I'd say. Perhaps Town could take advantage of their current situation and establish some sort of formal relationship with another club in Europe to nurture youngsters etc? I think the argument is that for our club, going down a Category and saving the money (presumably this means operating with reduced physio and wellbeing support below the mandated levels etc) would be unlikely to have much/any impact on the players we can turn around. And likewise, moving up a level wouldn't suddenly magic better players coming out of our system. Chelsea don't produce the best players because they have a Category 1 Academy, they produce the best players because they can look after hundreds of them and be there to take advantage when the special ones pop out at the other end. I think there is more central funding available the higher Category you are though, so no idea what the balance of funding looks like.
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Sept 6, 2017 14:27:44 GMT 1
Barnsley (Stones, Holgate, Bree) show that Cat B academies can still produce top players despite having all the Manchester being close by excuses.
MK Dons is a Cat C and has brought through Ali plus Eng U21s Galloway and Ojo
Town's output since Hunt (who is nearly 27) has been very poor for the investment
No wonder it's future is in doubt
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 14:42:11 GMT 1
I think we should move to national/regional academies. And then have a draft system out for the kids that graduate.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Sept 6, 2017 14:49:49 GMT 1
That is a shame to hear and would be one of the fundamental reasons the academy is unsuccessful. They need to look after the kids and the parents. There's an element of both ways in this. I've heard there's a lot more ass smoke blowing from the coaches at Leeds, Man City and Liverpool. If coaches are telling you little Johnny will be playing in the Champions League if he carries on working hard, of course you're going to be happier in that moment. But they cut players much more aggressively than we do (they take on more in each age group). Is that a better life lesson than the reality that is 95% of the kids who get the opportunity to train at an academy are never going to play above District league level?? I know Liverpool do a thing which seems a bit naughty where they take on 80 to 100 kids for a "trial" over summer, and then tell them to go back to junior football and monitor them and invite them back again the next summer....it saves them from becoming "committed" contractually to the kids, but keeps them on the radar if they happen to have a sudden steep upwards development) I think the "cutting process" is just a fact of life. However, if the coaches are unfriendly time servers not being respectful to the kids and parents - then this would be where a lot of the problems lie. This from my coaching experience in other sports.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Sept 6, 2017 14:52:50 GMT 1
I remember that excitement as a kid. If there were ever more than 3 or 4 watching the game and you didn't recognise them. Must be a Town scout. More likely a dirty old bloke in a raincoat! I got told by the PE teacher at Batley Grammar School that a scout from Burnley came to watch me a couple of times (I was a left winger with an eye for goal - better than VLP!). I think he had a dirty raincoat - de rigeur for old scouts, obviously. You've slowed down a bit now Chris.
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TTCMatt
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Post by TTCMatt on Sept 6, 2017 14:56:27 GMT 1
I remember Frazier Campbell signing for Man Utd on his 10th birthday, his dad used to play football for us, he could do 200 knock-ups then, Town had him 1st but seemed slow to act. Cameron Jerome was also at Town before Cardiff signed him, both were sold for 3m+, their are others, most of them played in Sunday Junior league. Cameron Jerome was with us but we turned down an approach from Man Utd for him - he and his family were upset about this and "retired" from football and stopped coming. He resurfaced on trial elsewhere and the rest is history. Campbell was in Man Utd dev centres from a young age, we never had a chance.
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Post by bluedogs, Esq. on Sept 6, 2017 15:00:09 GMT 1
Just be thankful it wasn't a bloke in a tracksuit smoking a big cigar.
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Post by drfootball on Sept 6, 2017 15:11:30 GMT 1
It's tricky balance but I would say , the academy I belive costs about 500k a year to run , IF we sold Billing alone he's would fetch who knows 3 million minimum? That's 6 years worth of funding in one sale ! You only need to find that one John Stones (like Barnsley did ) and the academy funds itself for a generation. 3 million ? In this market it will be nearer 30m when you see drinkwater was 35m Yea I realise that but if wells is 5 million ? anyway it was the point I was trying to make pall not about billing literally
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 15:19:42 GMT 1
People keep mentioning Billing but he was signed as a 16 year old so relatively speaking he has nothing to do with the academy. The bottom line is that other than J. Williams (who is very decent by all accounts) - we haven't had a decent player come through since Stead. It seems quite sad but something is very wrong with the academy. So if Hoyle thinks best to get shut, I won't be too bothered. I really don't know. You would think now we would attract better kids with just being in the premier league....
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Sept 6, 2017 15:32:47 GMT 1
People keep mentioning Billing but he was signed as a 16 year old so relatively speaking he has nothing to do with the academy. The bottom line is that other than J. Williams (who is very decent by all accounts) - we haven't had a decent player come through since Stead. It seems quite sad but something is very wrong with the academy. So if Hoyle thinks best to get shut, I won't be too bothered. I really don't know. You would think now we would attract better kids with just being in the premier league.... Think Leeds and Barnsley have to be our yardsticks for academies. They have done significantly better than us academy product wise over the last 5 years. A good start would be to investigate what they are doing right and we are doing wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 15:46:15 GMT 1
I think we should move to national/regional academies. And then have a draft system out for the kids that graduate. It could be argued we already have that. We should all just shut down our academies and pick from Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea cast offs!?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 15:53:46 GMT 1
I really don't know. You would think now we would attract better kids with just being in the premier league.... Think Leeds and Barnsley have to be our yardsticks for academies. They have done significantly better than us academy product wise over the last 5 years. A good start would be to investigate what they are doing right and we are doing wrong. Neil Redfearn. Amazed he doesn't have a role (I assume) somewhere, although maybe he has ambitions to manage a first team now after spells caretaking at Leeds and his flirtation with Rotherham.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 16:09:21 GMT 1
I think we should move to national/regional academies. And then have a draft system out for the kids that graduate. It could be argued we already have that. We should all just shut down our academies and pick from Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea cast offs!? That's not what I said at all
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 17:50:03 GMT 1
It could be argued we already have that. We should all just shut down our academies and pick from Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea cast offs!? That's not what I said at all I know, but it's more or less the system that's in place at the moment, that kids go to a handful of elite academies, but aren't actually deemed good enough to play for the elite teams, so end up going to Town for their football (like Tommy Smith, Harry Bunn, Williams, etc etc)...its more or less a draft system already. And all the other clubs like Town are just operating the regional satellites of a national academy that generates players for League 1 and 2. That the national centralised academy system happens to have a Liverpool, Chelsea or Man City badge on the door, rather than am FA badge is the difference.
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Post by shawsie on Sept 6, 2017 18:29:29 GMT 1
I really don't know. You would think now we would attract better kids with just being in the premier league.... Think Leeds and Barnsley have to be our yardsticks for academies. They have done significantly better than us academy product wise over the last 5 years. A good start would be to investigate what they are doing right and we are doing wrong. Not sure I agree......we need our academy to have an identity. Something different from the other clubs (many of them much bigger and richer than us) whereby there is a proven pathway to playing in the first team or being loaned out early to get experience instead of the god awful u23s which is akin to a pre season game. It's not easy to copy others as the FA have found out over decades by trying to emulate Brazil, Spain, France, Germany and whichever other country is en vogue at the time!!! The academy system is poor now imo..........the ethos is all very well, but the top clubs ruined it when they made the ruling that prospects can be sold for a pittance........as a mid sized club, why bother? It's easier to run a bare minimum set up and pick up a bunn or a smith from the elite clubs, develop them then sell them as we did with bunn for c500k which covers running costs for a year or so. It's very sad......but academies were set up to develop an increasing number of young home grown lads. They have the best facilities, training grounds, dietitians etc but the numbers playing regularly simply aren't there. Is it poor coaching, more things for kids to do now, more foreign imports that have created this? Probably an amalgam of all 3 and then some but something is very wrong when the young age groups appear to do well internationally, but once it gets to true adulthood we are simply bang average and it's not as though this is just a recent occurrence....it's been like it for decades.
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Sept 6, 2017 18:38:30 GMT 1
Think Leeds and Barnsley have to be our yardsticks for academies. They have done significantly better than us academy product wise over the last 5 years. A good start would be to investigate what they are doing right and we are doing wrong. Not sure I agree......we need our academy to have an identity. Something different from the other clubs (many of them much bigger and richer than us) whereby there is a proven pathway to playing in the first team or being loaned out early to get experience instead of the god awful u23s which is akin to a pre season game. It's not easy to copy others as the FA have found out over decades by trying to emulate Brazil, Spain, France, Germany and whichever other country is en vogue at the time!!! The academy system is poor now imo..........the ethos is all very well, but the top clubs ruined it when they made the ruling that prospects can be sold for a pittance........as a mid sized club, why bother? It's easier to run a bare minimum set up and pick up a bunn or a smith from the elite clubs, develop them then sell them as we did with bunn for c500k which covers running costs for a year or so. It's very sad......but academies were set up to develop an increasing number of young home grown lads. They have the best facilities, training grounds, dietitians etc but the numbers playing regularly simply aren't there. Is it poor coaching, more things for kids to do now, more foreign imports that have created this? Probably an amalgam of all 3 and then some but something is very wrong when the young age groups appear to do well internationally, but once it gets to true adulthood we are simply bang average and it's not as though this is just a recent occurrence....it's been like it for decades. Not sure I agree about the lack of numbers - there are zillions of young kids playing organised football now compared to when I was a lad 50 odd years ago. Not sure it's about foreigners either. Our youth teams have done poorly for the last couple of decades. It's only in the last year or so they have started to do well at international level. Maybe sustained run in the Premier League is all we need. Even then you can almost guarantee there won't be many stepping up from the academy to the first team. I agree u23 is not a solution. There needs to be a competitive underlayer to the first team. Central League or BD 2.
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