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Post by shawsie on Sept 6, 2017 18:57:14 GMT 1
Not sure I agree......we need our academy to have an identity. Something different from the other clubs (many of them much bigger and richer than us) whereby there is a proven pathway to playing in the first team or being loaned out early to get experience instead of the god awful u23s which is akin to a pre season game. It's not easy to copy others as the FA have found out over decades by trying to emulate Brazil, Spain, France, Germany and whichever other country is en vogue at the time!!! The academy system is poor now imo..........the ethos is all very well, but the top clubs ruined it when they made the ruling that prospects can be sold for a pittance........as a mid sized club, why bother? It's easier to run a bare minimum set up and pick up a bunn or a smith from the elite clubs, develop them then sell them as we did with bunn for c500k which covers running costs for a year or so. It's very sad......but academies were set up to develop an increasing number of young home grown lads. They have the best facilities, training grounds, dietitians etc but the numbers playing regularly simply aren't there. Is it poor coaching, more things for kids to do now, more foreign imports that have created this? Probably an amalgam of all 3 and then some but something is very wrong when the young age groups appear to do well internationally, but once it gets to true adulthood we are simply bang average and it's not as though this is just a recent occurrence....it's been like it for decades. Not sure I agree about the lack of numbers - there are zillions of young kids playing organised football now compared to when I was a lad 50 odd years ago. Not sure it's about foreigners either. Our youth teams have done poorly for the last couple of decades. It's only in the last year or so they have started to do well at international level. Maybe sustained run in the Premier League is all we need. Even then you can almost guarantee there won't be many stepping up from the academy to the first team. I agree u23 is not a solution. There needs to be a competitive underlayer to the first team. Central League or BD 2. I wasn't saying lack of numbers in football generally.....although the demise of Sunday leagues in brighouse and Huddersfield for example indicate otherwise. I would agree the organisation of junior football is better than when I played though. More a lack of young talented lads making professional first teams in numbers, particularly the top 2 divisions. There are exceptions, but I fail to see the progress made despite millions being invested in facilities, coaching qualifications etc.
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Post by York Terrier on Sept 6, 2017 18:58:17 GMT 1
It needs to close I said so a few years ago and got continually lectured by some muppet in a waistcoat leaning over telling me it cost next to nothing to run and it was a long term plan. Well 2/3 players in 10 years is a pretty poor return as far as I am concerned. Leaving this to one side even if we upgrade to cat 1 who would want their child to come to Huddersfield if you have the Manchester clubs Liverpool etc to join which leaves Huddersfield with the ones non of the top club want
I believe if you carn't do it well don't do it and we in my opinion simply cannot compete at academy level
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 19:15:40 GMT 1
Barnsley (Stones, Holgate, Bree) show that Cat B academies can still produce top players despite having all the Manchester being close by excuses. MK Dons is a Cat C and has brought through Ali plus Eng U21s Galloway and Ojo Town's output since Hunt (who is nearly 27) has been very poor for the investment No wonder it's future is in doubt You make a valid point and everything and everyone is under review
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 19:25:02 GMT 1
It needs to close I said so a few years ago and got continually lectured by some muppet in a waistcoat leaning over telling me it cost next to nothing to run and it was a long term plan. Well 2/3 players in 10 years is a pretty poor return as far as I am concerned. Leaving this to one side even if we upgrade to cat 1 who would want their child to come to Huddersfield if you have the Manchester clubs Liverpool etc to join which leaves Huddersfield with the ones non of the top club want I believe if you carn't do it well don't do it and we in my opinion simply cannot compete at academy level you are correct on the fact that we have not deliverd enough but your last line I would question.Barnsley are a cat lower than us and they certainly produce
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 19:39:47 GMT 1
It needs to close I said so a few years ago and got continually lectured by some muppet in a waistcoat leaning over telling me it cost next to nothing to run and it was a long term plan. Well 2/3 players in 10 years is a pretty poor return as far as I am concerned. Leaving this to one side even if we upgrade to cat 1 who would want their child to come to Huddersfield if you have the Manchester clubs Liverpool etc to join which leaves Huddersfield with the ones non of the top club want I believe if you carn't do it well don't do it and we in my opinion simply cannot compete at academy level you are correct on the fact that we have not deliverd enough but your last line I would question.Barnsley are a cat lower than us and they certainly produce Barnsley are a cat 2 Academy -same status as Town.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 19:55:17 GMT 1
you are correct on the fact that we have not deliverd enough but your last line I would question.Barnsley are a cat lower than us and they certainly produce Barnsley are a cat 2 Academy -same status as Town. i stand corrected there head of academy has left this week but they certainly produce better than us.
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Post by Kenny irons on Sept 6, 2017 21:19:31 GMT 1
I used to coach a goalkeeper a couple of years back and for his age he was unbelievably good and everyone was chasing him from Man Utd to City Liverpool, he chose town over all of them because it wasn't far from where he lived and he was a town fan. He's now left us and is now playing for Leeds Utd and is there number 1 keeper for his age, another one we've lost out on to a rival. I just don't know what they are doing down there at times. We've lost absolutely loads of youngsters to Sheffield united too from this years under 8s I think I know the boy in question, absolutely quality and we've lost him? I know his family quite well if we are talking about the same lad
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Post by goodshot (FGS) on Sept 6, 2017 21:31:53 GMT 1
Not sure I agree about the lack of numbers - there are zillions of young kids playing organised football now compared to when I was a lad 50 odd years ago. Not sure it's about foreigners either. Our youth teams have done poorly for the last couple of decades. It's only in the last year or so they have started to do well at international level. Maybe sustained run in the Premier League is all we need. Even then you can almost guarantee there won't be many stepping up from the academy to the first team. I agree u23 is not a solution. There needs to be a competitive underlayer to the first team. Central League or BD 2. I wasn't saying lack of numbers in football generally.....although the demise of Sunday leagues in brighouse and Huddersfield for example indicate otherwise. I would agree the organisation of junior football is better than when I played though. More a lack of young talented lads making professional first teams in numbers, particularly the top 2 divisions. There are exceptions, but I fail to see the progress made despite millions being invested in facilities, coaching qualifications etc. Guess to some extent that is where the influx of foreign players makes a difference. Should raise standards in the Championship and below - and I think it has to some extent. Premier League now creams the best in the world whereas it used to cream the best in Britain.
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Post by COWleySHED on Sept 6, 2017 22:07:11 GMT 1
Sad news if true although I understand why it's under review. My point on this is a don't think our academy has changed in any way it's just our first team that has got begged the likes of Holmes crooks & Sinnott are no worse than holdsworth Collins mirfin and could easily have played over 100 times for town if we were still league 1. I love an academy player coming through and don't forget ryan Schofield who at 17 is as bright a prospect as we have had for some time.
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Post by BLUE&WHITE on Sept 6, 2017 22:10:17 GMT 1
Billing came into our academy. He will one day be a top top player.
We sacked Lillis yet the players he has really brought through are only just getting to age. This season we have seen Williams and booty.
The first ones I would properly attribute to Lillis.
Williams has been given real high praise.
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Post by COWleySHED on Sept 6, 2017 22:14:17 GMT 1
Also just to let people know next tues 12th at 7pm at Liversedge fc town u16s play sheff Utd u 16s
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Post by COWleySHED on Sept 6, 2017 22:15:24 GMT 1
Not convinced by booty - Yeovil didn't take him on loan.
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Post by Jello Biafra on Sept 6, 2017 22:19:16 GMT 1
Town's Academy 'situation' is being discussed on TalkSPORT right now. Someone please ring in and put these under-informed mugs right.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 22:43:02 GMT 1
It needs to close I said so a few years ago and got continually lectured by some muppet in a waistcoat leaning over telling me it cost next to nothing to run and it was a long term plan. Well 2/3 players in 10 years is a pretty poor return as far as I am concerned. Leaving this to one side even if we upgrade to cat 1 who would want their child to come to Huddersfield if you have the Manchester clubs Liverpool etc to join which leaves Huddersfield with the ones non of the top club want I believe if you carn't do it well don't do it and we in my opinion simply cannot compete at academy level Hello, I believe you could be referring to me here. If memory serves, I even started a thread setting out how much the academy costs each year as a response to you plucking a figure from the sky and doubling it. I don't wear a waistcoat, though. My opinion had somewhat changed on the matter and I was inclined to agree that persuading youngsters to join us ahead of all the other local and bigger rivals wasn't working. However, promotion and the cash boost does raise an interesting alternative option. Either way, I'm confident the decision is in good hands.
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Post by townrwe on Sept 6, 2017 23:09:42 GMT 1
My opinion is... while we are in the premier division, the only option is keep it open or upgrade.
If we went down then i can see the value in shutting it down, however we owe it to english football to try and produce one or two internationals in the next 30 or 40 years.
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Post by Venezuelan Pete on Sept 6, 2017 23:15:36 GMT 1
It's the same old story with our academy prospects. Every year we have 1 or 2 players come through who look really impressive in the youth teams but ultimately never make the grade. Prime example - Jake Charles. Absolutely raved about, then suddenly shipped out to Barnsley on a free and now he's playing for Stalybridge Celtic.
At the end of the day the step up from youth football to pro is a massive one - even more so now we're in the Premier League and any academy prospects are going to have to be extra special to make the grade. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the likes of Williams, Booty and Schofield never make it with Town despite being the biggest prospects from the academy.
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hudmat
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Post by hudmat on Sept 6, 2017 23:29:01 GMT 1
Don't know why we need to stockpile a load of kids who are poor footballers. The academy compared to the local big boys is poor, ultimately that will only attract below average young players. Unless we are willing to inject 10s of millions into it to compete then its a waste of time and money isn't it? Finding one good player like Stones at Barnsley or the other examples is just luck. You can't run something that costs so much hoping to get lucky every couple of years. Having an u23 team like Brentford is enough.
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Post by thrice on Sept 6, 2017 23:51:29 GMT 1
I understand the frustration of having to burden the associated cost & competing against giants who are effectively harvesting young talent. It may be naive but my heart still tells me that we must find a way to make the academy work for us & it is a struggle worth persevering with.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 0:56:20 GMT 1
Sad news if true although I understand why it's under review. My point on this is a don't think our academy has changed in any way it's just our first team that has got begged the likes of Holmes crooks & Sinnott are no worse than holdsworth Collins mirfin and could easily have played over 100 times for town if we were still league 1. I love an academy player coming through and don't forget ryan Schofield who at 17 is as bright a prospect as we have had for some time. Which is all good, but the realistic likelihood is that Ryan will never play for Town and won't command a fee when he leaves. That's not quite such a bright prospect.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 0:58:41 GMT 1
It needs to close I said so a few years ago and got continually lectured by some muppet in a waistcoat leaning over telling me it cost next to nothing to run and it was a long term plan. Well 2/3 players in 10 years is a pretty poor return as far as I am concerned. Leaving this to one side even if we upgrade to cat 1 who would want their child to come to Huddersfield if you have the Manchester clubs Liverpool etc to join which leaves Huddersfield with the ones non of the top club want I believe if you carn't do it well don't do it and we in my opinion simply cannot compete at academy level Hello, I believe you could be referring to me here. If memory serves, I even started a thread setting out how much the academy costs each year as a response to you plucking a figure from the sky and doubling it. I don't wear a waistcoat, though. My opinion had somewhat changed on the matter and I was inclined to agree that persuading youngsters to join us ahead of all the other local and bigger rivals wasn't working. However, promotion and the cash boost does raise an interesting alternative option. Either way, I'm confident the decision is in good hands. Are you Nigel Clibbens?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 5:15:41 GMT 1
It's tricky balance but I would say , the academy I belive costs about 500k a year to run , IF we sold Billing alone he's would fetch who knows 3 million minimum? That's 6 years worth of funding in one sale ! You only need to find that one John Stones (like Barnsley did ) and the academy funds itself for a generation. Does Billing coming to the Academy at 16 count as a true Town youth? I actually think we should do this more, ridding the need for so many second and third rate youth prospects. Man U etc do scalp them from aroud HD, and that is not conjecture. Saying that, even before the Manchester clubs started spending on youths, we were woeful at scouting. I'm touching 30yo and all of the players I played with at youth football (many of which still play professionally), none made any appearances for Town other than Matty Crooks. One or two trialed/played youths for a year but all moved on, not necessarily to bigger clubs. Both Sheff Weds (Cam Jerome from Yorkshire Cup games for SPACE at Leeds Rd) and Chesterfield (Adam Smith picked up as a 15yo from Kirkheaton/Dalton) were more prolific at scouting in Huddersfield. I don't know what Town messed about at. And regarding one player can pay for a generation... Yes it could happen, but it is a pure gamble and very rare. Town may have gambled on Wagner, but Dean Hoyle is usually not a man to play the against the odds. Academies have become nothing more than a spending exercise for a lot of clubs. Even one of the best small club's Crewe seem to struggle now. This convo started back when we were a Championship club and the £1m per year or whatever it is, was about 10% of our entire budget. Now as an EPL club, I don't think much will happen until we become establisbed or are relegated.
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Post by Gold Coast Terrier on Sept 7, 2017 5:54:47 GMT 1
I understand the frustration of having to burden the associated cost & competing against giants who are effectively harvesting young talent. It may be naive but my heart still tells me that we must find a way to make the academy work for us & it is a struggle worth persevering with. The problem is the debate is a heart felt one, there seems little or no business logic towards keeping it open the way it stands. The EPPP has torn the bottom out of the academy system. From what I've read unless you're in the elite, a rival academy (Who has cat 1 status) can give 24 hours notice upon marching into your training sessions, picking out who they want and paying a pre-determined flat fee based on their time in the academy and appearances made. And we're talking five and six figure sums, not in the millions. We're currently in limbo and we either decide to pick off the elite talent overspill, or become Cat 1 and exploit other clubs through EPPP - but subsequently be still competing with the top top clubs.
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Post by jqhtfc on Sept 7, 2017 7:48:36 GMT 1
upgrade or downgrade we still face the same problem Man City, Utd, Liverpool etc cherry picking the best youth in the area or players already at the club until that stops we are always up against it. The club seem to have stopped the route they looked to be going down under Ross Wilson where we as well as producing our own we got youth from abroad one of which billing is starting in the premier and Danny Kane is an Irish u21 maybe a return to that approach would prove better on the flip side it's one arguement for shutting the academy and running like Brentford picking released players and buying youth from abroad which over the last few years has worked better for us is the way to go.
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Post by thrice on Sept 7, 2017 8:29:26 GMT 1
I understand the frustration of having to burden the associated cost & competing against giants who are effectively harvesting young talent. It may be naive but my heart still tells me that we must find a way to make the academy work for us & it is a struggle worth persevering with. The problem is the debate is a heart felt one, there seems little or no business logic towards keeping it open the way it stands. The EPPP has torn the bottom out of the academy system. From what I've read unless you're in the elite, a rival academy (Who has cat 1 status) can give 24 hours notice upon marching into your training sessions, picking out who they want and paying a pre-determined flat fee based on their time in the academy and appearances made. And we're talking five and six figure sums, not in the millions. We're currently in limbo and we either decide to pick off the elite talent overspill, or become Cat 1 and exploit other clubs through EPPP - but subsequently be still competing with the top top clubs. I think it is a flat fee of a few grand & then an additional three grand for every year the kid has been in the academy. A pittance to cover the costs incurred on nurturing the player especially if we were to upgrade our academy status. It still does not feel right to just "abandon" the system though.
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bigfatmonkey
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Post by bigfatmonkey on Sept 7, 2017 9:54:00 GMT 1
It's the same old story with our academy prospects. Every year we have 1 or 2 players come through who look really impressive in the youth teams but ultimately never make the grade. Prime example - Jake Charles. Absolutely raved about, then suddenly shipped out to Barnsley on a free and now he's playing for Stalybridge Celtic. At the end of the day the step up from youth football to pro is a massive one - even more so now we're in the Premier League and any academy prospects are going to have to be extra special to make the grade. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the likes of Williams, Booty and Schofield never make it with Town despite being the biggest prospects from the academy. Jake Charles was never the same after his injury but even before that he was over hyped due to the family name in my opinion.
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Post by NoToTrumpDonors on Sept 7, 2017 10:46:12 GMT 1
Ternent was a charmless, obnoxious tosser but he was right about the academy.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 10:48:11 GMT 1
My opinion is... while we are in the premier division, the only option is keep it open or upgrade. If we went down then i can see the value in shutting it down, however we owe it to english football to try and produce one or two internationals in the next 30 or 40 years. That is how the Premier League would see the situation especially after all the money they have given to Town!
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Post by jqhtfc on Sept 7, 2017 10:51:03 GMT 1
Only two options now in my opinion either scrap it and go Brentford style or now we have the money upgrade to cat 1 and try to pull players in from the other Yorkshire clubs and abroad, think if we did go cat 1 we'd be the only one in Yorkshire unless you count boro.
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Post by kennyk2 on Sept 7, 2017 10:51:45 GMT 1
Young Schofield the goalkeeper, England under 18s and under 20s. Will he ever get a chance to play for Town's first team in the PL? Possibly not and he may have to move, or he may be poached by another team. That might be the straw that breaks the camel's back as far as DH is concerned.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 10:55:11 GMT 1
That's not what I said at all I know, but it's more or less the system that's in place at the moment, that kids go to a handful of elite academies, but aren't actually deemed good enough to play for the elite teams, so end up going to Town for their football (like Tommy Smith, Harry Bunn, Williams, etc etc)...its more or less a draft system already. And all the other clubs like Town are just operating the regional satellites of a national academy that generates players for League 1 and 2. That the national centralised academy system happens to have a Liverpool, Chelsea or Man City badge on the door, rather than am FA badge is the difference. And because of that badging, one could argue that the way they develop players isn't in the best interests of the player, or the national team. Instead we could move to a system of regional centres of excellence, which could be funded by the fees that clubs would pay when the players graduate out. Have it all run by the FA, so that we can create a national identity of football (i.e. what is the 'English style'); HEAVILY invest in coaching, training and facilities, all over the country (rather than just the South). In a short number of years we'd see a far higher standard of player coming through.
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