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Post by joeyjoneslocker on Sept 25, 2018 12:01:26 GMT 1
Maybe, but I don't think so - I've thought long and hard about it since the Cardiff game - there is something intangible that has changed and all I'm doing here is thinking aloud. I don't want him gone. I want him back. It's really hard to see where our next points are coming from at the moment and it's the first time during his tenure I've felt that way. I still feel he can come good but we need something to kick-start things. I just wonder how long we can keep saying "no rub of the green" and "fine margins" etc... The only thing that has changed is the volume of so called fans having such a knee jerk reaction to Wagner/the players/the coaching staff/the players that we let go/the new signings. All after just 6 games. Nothing wrong with your post, say it as you see it, of course points are a problem but, as I keep saying, the last 3 games have been good. We have played better this season at Everton, Leicester and at home to Palace than we did last season. If after 19 games we find ourselves without a win and doomed then fair enough, fingers will be pointed in all directions but, for me, the only thing that has changed is the abundance of cry babies because we are struggling to compete in the Premier League.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2018 12:12:39 GMT 1
Let me start this thread by saying I do not advocate a change of manager, at all. DW has earned the right to get us out of this mess. However, I think most fans are in agreement that we are in a malaise as a club. Things are not right - the atmosphere has changed. I have wondered whether the conception that Wagner will be here at the end of the season come what may could be part of the issue. He has adopted a change of tactics that is not bringing results, and the players do not look confident. Gone is the high pressing, high tempo, high aggression defending. We seem set up to play a counter attacking game we're not equipped for, and it's fair to say many have questioned both the team selection and the summer transfer activity (albeit with hindsight in the latter case). I wonder whether the safety net that Wagner feels he has is actually a millstone round his neck, and is preventing him from making bold decisions, playing a bold way? I'll put my tin hat on now and wait for the happy clappy brigade to shoot me down, but I'm genuinely trying to get my head round what's changed, and am not advocating he goes any time soon. First of all we are not in a malaise as a club we are having a hard time that is true as for The managers position I would remind fans and so called fans that Burnley were relegated in there first season in the prem And DYCHE quite rightly was given the chance to bring them back up again which he did.Wagner kept us up in the first season and can do it again and Dean is absoulutly spot on in his backing. I understand peoples concerns but lets take the emotion out of it and be realistic we are working hard to get it right and for me there has been a total overreaction to the situation.No one is being complacent but there is a long way to go yet.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Sept 25, 2018 12:23:47 GMT 1
I don't agree there is a "malaise" around the club at all, but I do think the harsh realities of playing in the Premier League are being faced. DW is not stupid, he is not arrogant, he is studious, he is reflective. As such, he will be looking at the overall position we are in and what can be done to compete and improve. At the moment we are caught between being able to compete and win games and, to a large degree, damage limitation. I have posted elsewhere that recruitment has been our failing, which with our policy you have to accept, and that lack of Premier League quality is what we really lack. I anticipate we will be relegated, although I would not be completely surprised if we started to get some results, and that will be a tough watch if it happens. The bigger picture is what we have gained from this last 3 years and how that shapes our future as a football club. I say that in the knowledge that watching your team getting beaten isn't easy, certainly not enjoyable, but we are in a far better position as a club. It's hard to see the bigger picture at the moment but if we don't build on the last 3 years then we will be in a "malaise". DW wants to improve and learn - I trust him in this respect completely. DH is naturally positive and successful, he is also honest and will want to continue to learn and develop. The players are proud and have heart, they won't go down without giving it their all. In the next 8 months this may not be enough, sorry that's a reality, but in the next 2-5 years this club should have a different mindset and identity from what we had in the previous 40 years. That is the real opportunity here, but as I say when you aren't winning games it is difficult to see that. Ref; the bit highlighted, I imagine DW is one of the hardest working Mgrs in football, or certainly strikes me as that's the case & that other than match days his mind will constantly be whirring... As another poster has questioned - is his reported salary an issue with some players? From what I've seen in the press DW has got the back of all his players and in turn they seem to respect and support him for that. Equally, those players will be earning a salary that they (& their snake oil agents) will have negotiated and should therefore be happy with, so don't think there's any rift from any angle, including money. It's just a tough league, we're not used to this new version of success & it's difficult to adjust. Town will be here long after DW (& DH) have both left us, but as Dugnet has pointed out, it's their legacy that they're trying to build the cornerstones of just now & that should be what's important here. Anyway, in true Town fashion I expect us to bag the 3 pts on Saturday, it will be one of our highlights of the season on reflection, as was MU last yr...
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Post by impact on Sept 25, 2018 12:26:28 GMT 1
Am I the only one who had to Google what malaise meant?
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Post by Sio on Sept 25, 2018 12:31:36 GMT 1
Let me start this thread by saying I do not advocate a change of manager, at all. DW has earned the right to get us out of this mess. However, I think most fans are in agreement that we are in a malaise as a club. Things are not right - the atmosphere has changed. I have wondered whether the conception that Wagner will be here at the end of the season come what may could be part of the issue. He has adopted a change of tactics that is not bringing results, and the players do not look confident. Gone is the high pressing, high tempo, high aggression defending. We seem set up to play a counter attacking game we're not equipped for, and it's fair to say many have questioned both the team selection and the summer transfer activity (albeit with hindsight in the latter case). I wonder whether the safety net that Wagner feels he has is actually a millstone round his neck, and is preventing him from making bold decisions, playing a bold way? I'll put my tin hat on now and wait for the happy clappy brigade to shoot me down, but I'm genuinely trying to get my head round what's changed, and am not advocating he goes any time soon. First of all we are not in a malaise as a club we are having a hard time that is true as for The managers position I would remind fans and so called fans that Burnley were relegated in there first season in the prem And DYCHE quite rightly was given the chance to bring them back up again which he did. Wagner kept us up in the first season and can do it again and Dean is absoulutly spot on in his backing.I understand peoples concerns but lets take the emotion out of it and be realistic we are working hard to get it right and for me there has been a total overreaction to the situation.No one is being complacent but there is a long way to go yet. He kept us up with the points we earned in the first half of the season playing an entirely different setup to what we see now. I want Wagner to turn things around and stay, but it's on him now. The criticism he is receiving is justified. The fans - in the stadium at least - have stayed positive despite miserable home performances time and time again.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Sept 25, 2018 12:32:06 GMT 1
Am I the only one who had to Google what malaise meant? Every day is a school day.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 25, 2018 12:34:10 GMT 1
Let me start this thread by saying I do not advocate a change of manager, at all. DW has earned the right to get us out of this mess. However, I think most fans are in agreement that we are in a malaise as a club. Things are not right - the atmosphere has changed. I have wondered whether the conception that Wagner will be here at the end of the season come what may could be part of the issue. He has adopted a change of tactics that is not bringing results, and the players do not look confident. Gone is the high pressing, high tempo, high aggression defending. We seem set up to play a counter attacking game we're not equipped for, and it's fair to say many have questioned both the team selection and the summer transfer activity (albeit with hindsight in the latter case). I wonder whether the safety net that Wagner feels he has is actually a millstone round his neck, and is preventing him from making bold decisions, playing a bold way? I'll put my tin hat on now and wait for the happy clappy brigade to shoot me down, but I'm genuinely trying to get my head round what's changed, and am not advocating he goes any time soon. Or... we have an overexpectation problem caused by overachievement in the last two seasons... This
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Sept 25, 2018 12:34:13 GMT 1
Nonsense imo .. how can you tell “something is wrong “ by turning up to a football stadium once a fortnight the same way people can say "the squad's togetherness is obvious" by turning up once in a fortnight. It's an opinion based on what I have seen. It may be wrong, but to say it's nonsense and you can't assess the team's mood by watching them play is... well... nonsense.
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Post by El Mel on Sept 25, 2018 12:41:54 GMT 1
Or... we have an overexpectation problem caused by overachievement in the last two seasons... This Did you expect us to be below Cardiff at this stage of the season tho?
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 25, 2018 12:47:27 GMT 1
Did you expect us to be below Cardiff at this stage of the season tho? We’ve played 6 games ffs .. I expected us to be here 12 months ago but a miracle occurred . Mel why don’t you stick your head above the parapet and say “sack him “ ... you know you wanted to in our promotion season and again in our survival season .. looking back do you think fat sam ( or whoever ) would have got us up and kept us up ? Anyway no matter .. call for his head instead of skirting round it again
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Post by iangreaves on Sept 25, 2018 12:47:34 GMT 1
We've had far too many Mgrs that have chopped and changed at the first sign of panic. Isn't that what our current manager did after the home game against Spurs last season.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 25, 2018 12:48:52 GMT 1
Nonsense imo .. how can you tell “something is wrong “ by turning up to a football stadium once a fortnight the same way people can say "the squad's togetherness is obvious" by turning up once in a fortnight. It's an opinion based on what I have seen. It may be wrong, but to say it's nonsense and you can't assess the team's mood by watching them play is... well... nonsense. M So based on our performances against chelsea Cardiff and palace you can say that there is some kind of mental malaise within the camp ? I’m sorry but I’m laughing out loud here
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Sept 25, 2018 12:55:15 GMT 1
We've had far too many Mgrs that have chopped and changed at the first sign of panic. Isn't that what our current manager did after the home game against Spurs last season. By that same token if he did, was that the reason we survived? So if he sets off in that mode this yr knowing it worked last yr, why would he change to an all out attacking style. I think people over think the Spurs situation. We got thumped after a great start and it was a reality check. First season up in the PL it wouldn't be a crime if we did adjust things a little, not that it made a great deal of difference vs many of the top clubs. Football is a simple game, the playing field is never level players wise, sometimes it's just effort, luck & tactics, in whatever order you think is important... The PL is difficult for us, because there are so many teams who rely upon fast counter attacking football nowadays, the days of grinding out hard earned 1-0's etc. is a dying art, even for the top teams.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Sept 25, 2018 12:55:55 GMT 1
Just to add, this is a great thread, sensible debate for a change... :-)
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Post by El Mel on Sept 25, 2018 12:55:58 GMT 1
Did you expect us to be below Cardiff at this stage of the season tho? We’ve played 6 games ffs .. I expected us to be here 12 months ago but a miracle occurred . Mel why don’t you stick your head above the parapet and say “sack him “ ... you know you wanted to in our promotion season and again in our survival season .. looking back do you think fat sam ( or whoever ) would have got us up and kept us up ? Anyway no matter .. call for his head instead of skirting round it again Stop being a retard Ted. We're not performing in-front of goal and haven't been since the day Wagner arrived. I've asked you to trawl through my posts and ask where I've said Wagner should be sacked, and as far I'm aware, you've not managed to come with a quote from me that resembles that. I don't want him sacked, I want him to sort it out and prove that he's the manager we all think he can be - he's definitely not the messiah you think he is. Yes he's revolutionary to what we've been accustomed to, but the quality of some of our football has been poor, both in this division and in the championship. As far as Allardyce goes. As I've always said, if there comes a time when it looks like Wagner is taking us down, and Allardyce could keep us up, then if he's available at that time I think it would be the right call. That's only my opinion, don't get so upset about it man. Is that clear Edward?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2018 12:57:23 GMT 1
In the summer I had a feeling I tried to ignore, that Wagner was making a mistake by sticking around for a second season. The real advantage he had here over other sides at this level was togetherness and unbridled support towards him. When we were battling Southampton, Stoke and Swansea to avoid relegation, it certainly must have helped that we were the only set of fans who were fully behind our team - the other fans down there were annoyed they were even in the situation and critical of their managers and sometimes boards.
However, I did wonder how long such support would continue. Once it goes, there really isn't any advantage for Wagner to be here rather than anywhere else. He may as well go somewhere else where he also doesn't have unbridled support, but does have better players and resources to achieve what he wants to.
I think the vast majority are firmly behind Wagner and sympathetic to our current situation. However, there certainly is a minority who are excessively critical and even some who are calling for him to go. Quite remarkable given what he has achieved in his time here and the fact we're only six games into the new season.
For what it's worth, in my opinion the results have been poor, but I don't think the performances have been particularly bad. I've tried to summarise them below, I think given the fixtures a return of 5-7 points would have been very satisfactory and anything more would have been excellent - so I don't think it's unfathomable that we could claw this back over the course of the season.
Chelsea - I thought was one of our best performances against a top six side and certainly better than when we drew with them in May. Against the top six you need to perform well and get the breaks. We did the former, but the key moments went against us - Kante's flukey opener, Mounie hitting the post, our penalty appeal being rejected but Chelsea's given...
Man City - horrendous day, we didn't play well against the best side in the country and were comfortably beaten. The scoreline was made even worse by some awful individual errors from Hamer.
Cardiff - struggled to break them down and didn't create anywhere near enough. Cardiff pressed high, so reasonable to assume space would have opened up as game went on but Hogg got himself stupidly sent off. Depoitre should have earned us an undeserved three points.
Everton - thought we played well and despite MOTD making it look like we were battered, I think we were the better of the two sides and could have taken three points. Particularly if that ridiculous foul against Hadergjonaj hadn't been given - he was through on goal, a defender tried to challenge him and somehow Flo is adjudged to have fouled him?!
Palace - better side, should have won.
Leicester - didn't go, sounds like we made too many mistakes but would have been very different had we gone 2-1 up when Depoitre was through on goal.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 25, 2018 12:59:04 GMT 1
We’ve played 6 games ffs .. I expected us to be here 12 months ago but a miracle occurred . Mel why don’t you stick your head above the parapet and say “sack him “ ... you know you wanted to in our promotion season and again in our survival season .. looking back do you think fat sam ( or whoever ) would have got us up and kept us up ? Anyway no matter .. call for his head instead of skirting round it again Stop being a retard Ted. We're not performing in-front of goal and haven't been since the day Wagner arrived. I've asked you to trawl through my posts and ask where I've said Wagner should be sacked, and as far I'm aware, you've not managed to come with a quote from me that resembles that. I don't want him sacked, I want him to sort it out and prove that he's the manager we all think he can be - he's definitely not the messiah you think he is. Yes he's revolutionary to what we've been accustomed to, but the quality of some of our football has been poor, both in this division and in the championship. As far as Allardyce goes. As I've always said, if there comes a time when it looks like Wagner is taking us down, and Allardyce could keep us up, then if he's available at that time I think it would be the right call. That's only my opinion, don't get so upset about it man. Is that clear Edward? Unfortunate that you use the word “retard” see ya
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Post by El Mel on Sept 25, 2018 13:06:04 GMT 1
Stop being a retard Ted. We're not performing in-front of goal and haven't been since the day Wagner arrived. I've asked you to trawl through my posts and ask where I've said Wagner should be sacked, and as far I'm aware, you've not managed to come with a quote from me that resembles that. I don't want him sacked, I want him to sort it out and prove that he's the manager we all think he can be - he's definitely not the messiah you think he is. Yes he's revolutionary to what we've been accustomed to, but the quality of some of our football has been poor, both in this division and in the championship. As far as Allardyce goes. As I've always said, if there comes a time when it looks like Wagner is taking us down, and Allardyce could keep us up, then if he's available at that time I think it would be the right call. That's only my opinion, don't get so upset about it man. Is that clear Edward? Unfortunate that you use the word “retard” see ya That's exactly why I used it.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Sept 25, 2018 13:18:14 GMT 1
the same way people can say "the squad's togetherness is obvious" by turning up once in a fortnight. It's an opinion based on what I have seen. It may be wrong, but to say it's nonsense and you can't assess the team's mood by watching them play is... well... nonsense. M So based on our performances against chelsea Cardiff and palace you can say that there is some kind of mental malaise within the camp ? I’m sorry but I’m laughing out loud here Laugh out loud all you want but having watched all 3 home games live and all 3 away games on TV I believe that the body language, facial expressions etc. indicate all is not well. The players look short of confidence and emotional strength. What, pray tell, is the difference between saying this and saying "they look well up for it" or "they look confident"? I'll tell you, there is no difference. Laugh out loud all you like. Watch LDP miss that chance on Saturday, and view his facial expression afterwards. It's not the face of a man who is angry with himself, or who thinks "I'll score the next one". He looked broken.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Sept 25, 2018 13:20:49 GMT 1
Stop being a retard Ted. We're not performing in-front of goal and haven't been since the day Wagner arrived. I've asked you to trawl through my posts and ask where I've said Wagner should be sacked, and as far I'm aware, you've not managed to come with a quote from me that resembles that. I don't want him sacked, I want him to sort it out and prove that he's the manager we all think he can be - he's definitely not the messiah you think he is. Yes he's revolutionary to what we've been accustomed to, but the quality of some of our football has been poor, both in this division and in the championship. As far as Allardyce goes. As I've always said, if there comes a time when it looks like Wagner is taking us down, and Allardyce could keep us up, then if he's available at that time I think it would be the right call. That's only my opinion, don't get so upset about it man. Is that clear Edward? Unfortunate that you use the word “retard” see ya Shouldn't have used the word, granted, but his points are valid and deserve a response, otherwise it looks like a cop out.
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Post by teddytheterrier on Sept 25, 2018 13:25:34 GMT 1
Maybe Tommy Smith needs to give a few of them a kick up the arse.
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Post by Farsley Terrier (UK product) on Sept 25, 2018 13:25:47 GMT 1
M So based on our performances against chelsea Cardiff and palace you can say that there is some kind of mental malaise within the camp ? I’m sorry but I’m laughing out loud here Laugh out loud all you want but having watched all 3 home games live and all 3 away games on TV I believe that the body language, facial expressions etc. indicate all is not well. The players look short of confidence and emotional strength. What, pray tell, is the difference between saying this and saying "they look well up for it" or "they look confident"? I'll tell you, there is no difference. Laugh out loud all you like. Watch LDP miss that chance on Saturday, and view his facial expression afterwards. It's not the face of a man who is angry with himself, or who thinks "I'll score the next one". He looked broken. I'm glad someone else has noticed our players and their body language is not right. Is something upsetting the camp?
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Post by Baby Ate My Eight Ball on Sept 25, 2018 13:25:59 GMT 1
I understand what you're saying, but I think there a lot of reasons for the current choice of tactics. One of them is Kongolo. We can line up 4231 and play Kongolo at centre half (and drop Schindler or Zanka) or at left back. He's brilliant defensively at left back, but does he offer what we need going forward in that system? I can't help but think this has something to do with the 3421 system we're using currently. Another is how open we can look with 4231. It is my preferred system for Town, but the 20 or so minutes we played vs Leicester with this system only highlighted how stretched we can look playing this way. Now bar Cardiff (where I think DW got it totally wrong, and should have played Pritchard over Hogg and shown more attacking intent) I think he's avoided 4231 and a high press because of the pace the other teams have. Leicester's movement was too quick and sharp for us, and when we switched to two centre backs the problem only seemed to get worse. I believe this is the reason he played the way he did against Palace and Everton too. The big question is will a switch back to 4231 actually deliver better results? Despite a disappointing run of results I believe performances have generally been good. We were great at Everton, somehow lost to Palace and had a good first half and good chances vs Leicester. Are we in these games because of the new system? Will a switch to 4231 really make us start scoring for fun? We have created chances playing with this current system, though I concede many are from set pieces. I of course don't know the answer to these questions. It does irritate me a little bit when some fans simplify these matters so much too (i.e. play Pritchard and we'll score more goals, or press more etc). I get that every fan has the right to an opinion, it's just the way that some of these opinions are often stated as THE solution to our problems, as if DW, a qualified and successful coach, is blissfully unaware of such ideas. Have a little more faith in the man, because his track record has earned him that at the very least. I think Grimois raises a fair point in regards to the 'complacency' issue. But I don't think it will affect Wagner's decision making. I think he's a very intelligent man who really puts thought into every decision he makes, be it during the match or on the training ground. And more often than not he makes the right call. Spot on. I think that the system has given us a real chance in the last few games, I just think the personnel hasn't quite been right in order to be effective on the counter attack. At Leicester we had numerous opportunities when we took it off them in midfield and then had the chance to run at their defence, we just didn't have the pace, quality or composure to make it effective. Bournemouth did and they stuck 4 past them, they're far more clinical than us and that's what we should be aiming for on the counter attack. Take Kachunga out, he is presumably in the team to make us more solid as he hasn't delivered in an attacking sense in this league. But he was partly culpable for the Zaha goal the other week and offered nothing on Saturday. Replace him with Pritchard and he'll be able to offer us a lot more in and around the opposition box and with incisive passing. Or either Mbenza or Diakhaby for pace on the counter attack and more threat to get in behind, if they come good.
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Post by drumriggend on Sept 25, 2018 13:28:05 GMT 1
For what it's worth (And I know lots of people hang on my every word😁) I think it's far too early to form an opinion . We have had a difficult run of games to start. But there are a sequence of winnable matches between now and crimbo. If we are still bottom of the league at Xmas then Deano may have a decision to make... But.... The bedwetters just need to man up. 6 games in... I'm sure our manager and squad have a bit more backbone than some of the curmudgeonly cry babies on here.. Cheer up you miserable feckers 😁
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Sept 25, 2018 13:28:40 GMT 1
Maybe Tommy Smith needs to give a few of them a kick up the arse. this speaks to my point about leadership. We have a captain who doesn't start matches, and whilst I think Hogg and Schindler are vital I don't see them as leaders in the way I think we need. I'd probably give Zanka the armband (or Kongolo if he was older)
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Post by teddytheterrier on Sept 25, 2018 13:32:33 GMT 1
Maybe Tommy Smith needs to give a few of them a kick up the arse. this speaks to my point about leadership. We have a captain who doesn't start matches, and whilst I think Hogg and Schindler are vital I don't see them as leaders in the way I think we need. I'd probably give Zanka the armband (or Kongolo if he was older) I'd agree regarding Zanka. Wasn't he Copenhagens captain? I like Hogg but he doesn't lead by example and Smith can't get a game.
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Post by Farsley Terrier (UK product) on Sept 25, 2018 13:35:21 GMT 1
For what it's worth (And I know lots of people hang on my every word😁) I think it's far too early to form an opinion . We have had a difficult run of games to start. But there are a sequence of winnable matches between now and crimbo. If we are still bottom of the league at Xmas then Deano may have a decision to make... But.... The bedwetters just need to man up. 6 games in... I'm sure our manager and squad have a bit more backbone than some of the curmudgeonly cry babies on here.. Cheer up you miserable feckers 😁 one win in 10 league games. A pretty dire league record in 2018. How long is too long?
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Post by drumriggend on Sept 25, 2018 13:39:49 GMT 1
For what it's worth (And I know lots of people hang on my every word😁) I think it's far too early to form an opinion . We have had a difficult run of games to start. But there are a sequence of winnable matches between now and crimbo. If we are still bottom of the league at Xmas then Deano may have a decision to make... But.... The bedwetters just need to man up. 6 games in... I'm sure our manager and squad have a bit more backbone than some of the curmudgeonly cry babies on here.. Cheer up you miserable feckers 😁 one win in 10 league games. A pretty dire league record in 2018. How long is too long? Read what I said bro. Mek an Informed decision at Xmas.. Don't piss thissen at the 1st sign of trouble...
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Post by teddytheterrier on Sept 25, 2018 13:43:11 GMT 1
Love all the labelling on this forum.
We are either bedwetters or turdpolishers.
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Post by Farsley Terrier (UK product) on Sept 25, 2018 13:43:28 GMT 1
one win in 10 league games. A pretty dire league record in 2018. How long is too long? Read what I said bro. Mek an Informed decision at Xmas.. Don't piss thissen at the 1st sign of trouble... if that wer th case I'd av pissed misen long before now.
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