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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Sept 25, 2018 9:06:10 GMT 1
Let me start this thread by saying I do not advocate a change of manager, at all. DW has earned the right to get us out of this mess.
However, I think most fans are in agreement that we are in a malaise as a club. Things are not right - the atmosphere has changed.
I have wondered whether the conception that Wagner will be here at the end of the season come what may could be part of the issue.
He has adopted a change of tactics that is not bringing results, and the players do not look confident. Gone is the high pressing, high tempo, high aggression defending. We seem set up to play a counter attacking game we're not equipped for, and it's fair to say many have questioned both the team selection and the summer transfer activity (albeit with hindsight in the latter case).
I wonder whether the safety net that Wagner feels he has is actually a millstone round his neck, and is preventing him from making bold decisions, playing a bold way?
I'll put my tin hat on now and wait for the happy clappy brigade to shoot me down, but I'm genuinely trying to get my head round what's changed, and am not advocating he goes any time soon.
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Post by artysid on Sept 25, 2018 9:12:58 GMT 1
it's fair to say many have questioned both the team selection and the summer transfer activity (albeit with hindsight in the latter case). TBF Given most of us know little about the players we bring in beforehand its seems fair to hold back on criticism of our transfer activity until after we've had chance to assess the purchases |
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Post by detox on Sept 25, 2018 9:13:35 GMT 1
He's going the same way as his predecessors, who all ended up playing 'safety first' football. Coincidence ? DH influence ? I don't know..but what I do know is sitting deep all game and relying on counter attacks when we have no one to play a counter attacking role, is not working. We were known atone time for our fitness levels, our ability to play high tempo football..that has all gone, we look lethargic or maybe it's the style of play which restricts players from getting up and down the pitch. If LD had taken his 2 chances though we might all have been saying we've turned the corner..such fine margins. My underlying feeling is we are simply not good enough, despite the new signings. maybe Ince, Hef, Quanar and Malone had more about them than we thought ?
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Post by waterlooboy on Sept 25, 2018 9:21:21 GMT 1
It was always going to happen, last year we got off to a great start which saved us from the drop, we will get relegated whether it be this year or one of the following, all i would say is enjoy these days of the top teams coming to our place. I would rather watch Man City, Liverpool and the rest been at our place than Burton, Wigan or teams that bring very few supporters. Can't understand the moaning brigade, tickets are cheap, nearly a full house each week, we are in the news for our football club. Yes we should have bought better with the money we have paid out and that may be Wagner's lack of experience at the top level, but all i would say to him, get rid of the defensive thoughts, it got us out of the Championship, but let's have a go at teams at home, attack them and put the fear of God into teams coming to us.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Sept 25, 2018 9:22:08 GMT 1
I imagine it's more to do with the honeymoon period being over...
The position we find ourselves in is where Mgrs get the plaudits for hauling them out of it.
I'm glad we have a Mgr who is actually single minded and has strength in his own beliefs. We've had far too many Mgrs that have chopped and changed at the first sign of panic. Had DW done that in the sticky period in the promotion season there's a good chance we wouldn't have been promoted in my view.
Mgrs always have a shelf life, DW will be the same, but for me he's a breath of fresh air in his mgmt style, unlike others who get influenced by the media and believe their own hype...
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Sept 25, 2018 9:23:31 GMT 1
He's going the same way as his predecessors, who all ended up playing 'safety first' football. Coincidence ? DH influence ? I don't know..but what I do know is sitting deep all game and relying on counter attacks when we have no one to play a counter attacking role, is not working. We were known atone time for our fitness levels, our ability to play high tempo football..that has all gone, we look lethargic or maybe it's the style of play which restricts players from getting up and down the pitch. If LD had taken his 2 chances though we might all have been saying we've turned the corner..such fine margins. My underlying feeling is we are simply not good enough, despite the new signings. maybe Ince, Hef, Quanar and Malone had more about them than we thought ? I think there's possibly something in this - guarantee that when you're flat Hef will pick you up, make you see all is not lost. I think we miss that but I also think we are lacking a bastard. When you look around our team which player would you not want to look in the eye at half time after you've fucked up? Is there one? Are we too nice? We need leadership on and off the pitch and at the moment it feels lacking. I just hope DW is getting into their heads this week and telling them to go out and make sure spurs know they've been in a game - every game is worth fighting for - but I suspect there may be a "there's always the next game after the one we're about to fail to win" thinking going on. |
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Sept 25, 2018 9:24:56 GMT 1
I imagine it's more to do with the honeymoon period being over... The position we find ourselves in is where Mgrs get the plaudits for hauling them out of it. I'm glad we have a Mgr who is actually single minded and has strength in his own beliefs. We've had far too many Mgrs that have chopped and changed at the first sign of panic. Had DW done that in the sticky period in the promotion season there's a good chance we wouldn't have been promoted in my view. Mgrs always have a shelf life, DW will be the same, but for me he's a breath of fresh air in his mgmt style, unlike others who get influenced by the media and believe their own hype... this is kind of my point - I don't think he does at the moment - he's fundamentally changed our way of playing, he's become reactive not proactive. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Sept 25, 2018 9:25:04 GMT 1
Think its a problem that comes with bringing in players whove only known playing in france, Holland etc.
Its a very different game in terms of the speed and physicality and for some it can take a while to get used to it.
Some just never do.
Kongolo took to it immediately, but perhaps hes an exception. Schindler took about 4 months. Don;t think Flo has yet and hes been here a year, or Mounie.
Think most of the summer signings just haven't found their feet yet. Problem is we really need them to.
As far as loyalty to the manager goes, then Wagner has earned plenty for what hes done here and Im sure DH will show him that.
But when DH said he wouldnt sack Wagner even if we went down, I think although he will have meant it, it perhaps depends how you go down.
If we're fighting to stay up to the end but fail, thats one thing, but if we're completely cut adrift and showing no signs of making up the gap, then maybe thats another?
If you ignore whats gone on in the past and just focus on the here and now, then Wagner is currently falling foul of 2 things that cost his predecessors their jobs.
Grayson went after a lousy run of results . Currently its worse.
Powell went cos the football was dull. Currently its worse.
So loyalty or not, i think wagner is starting to look vulnerable
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Post by ruggedivy on Sept 25, 2018 9:29:02 GMT 1
It maybe due to both DW and the club been massively out of their depth in the PL.
DW has obviously adopted the more pragmatic approach of safety first ( one also popular with all the other managers with more modest budgets in the PL).
I do not agree that DW is un-sackable. If results went in such a way, then I do not think DH would have any choice but to sack DW.
However, I think DH believes that this will not happen. He trusts DW and believes in His philosophies 100% ( As should we for the foreseeable future).
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Post by Cosmo Kramer on Sept 25, 2018 9:30:53 GMT 1
I understand what you're saying, but I think there a lot of reasons for the current choice of tactics.
One of them is Kongolo. We can line up 4231 and play Kongolo at centre half (and drop Schindler or Zanka) or at left back. He's brilliant defensively at left back, but does he offer what we need going forward in that system? I can't help but think this has something to do with the 3421 system we're using currently.
Another is how open we can look with 4231. It is my preferred system for Town, but the 20 or so minutes we played vs Leicester with this system only highlighted how stretched we can look playing this way. Now bar Cardiff (where I think DW got it totally wrong, and should have played Pritchard over Hogg and shown more attacking intent) I think he's avoided 4231 and a high press because of the pace the other teams have. Leicester's movement was too quick and sharp for us, and when we switched to two centre backs the problem only seemed to get worse. I believe this is the reason he played the way he did against Palace and Everton too.
The big question is will a switch back to 4231 actually deliver better results? Despite a disappointing run of results I believe performances have generally been good. We were great at Everton, somehow lost to Palace and had a good first half and good chances vs Leicester. Are we in these games because of the new system? Will a switch to 4231 really make us start scoring for fun? We have created chances playing with this current system, though I concede many are from set pieces.
I of course don't know the answer to these questions. It does irritate me a little bit when some fans simplify these matters so much too (i.e. play Pritchard and we'll score more goals, or press more etc). I get that every fan has the right to an opinion, it's just the way that some of these opinions are often stated as THE solution to our problems, as if DW, a qualified and successful coach, is blissfully unaware of such ideas. Have a little more faith in the man, because his track record has earned him that at the very least.
I think Grimois raises a fair point in regards to the 'complacency' issue. But I don't think it will affect Wagner's decision making. I think he's a very intelligent man who really puts thought into every decision he makes, be it during the match or on the training ground. And more often than not he makes the right call.
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Post by Sio on Sept 25, 2018 9:36:18 GMT 1
Let me start this thread by saying I do not advocate a change of manager, at all. DW has earned the right to get us out of this mess. However, I think most fans are in agreement that we are in a malaise as a club. Things are not right - the atmosphere has changed. I have wondered whether the conception that Wagner will be here at the end of the season come what may could be part of the issue. He has adopted a change of tactics that is not bringing results, and the players do not look confident. Gone is the high pressing, high tempo, high aggression defending. We seem set up to play a counter attacking game we're not equipped for, and it's fair to say many have questioned both the team selection and the summer transfer activity (albeit with hindsight in the latter case). I wonder whether the safety net that Wagner feels he has is actually a millstone round his neck, and is preventing him from making bold decisions, playing a bold way? I'll put my tin hat on now and wait for the happy clappy brigade to shoot me down, but I'm genuinely trying to get my head round what's changed, and am not advocating he goes any time soon. I think most would defend Wagner's position even if we continue this form until Christmas - as many point out, he's earned the right to turn things around. But if he doesn't turn things around then fingers must be pointed, and his position should become less stable. We are playing incredibly predictable, one-dimensional football that on current viewing will leave us finishing bottom of the table, potentially on record low points. That isn't even exaggeration right now - we look completely devoid of being able to pick up points. But we've seen Wagner change his setup for the better before and hopefully he realises that this current way isn't working. He needs to use the tactical knowledge he has to make this work - even if that just sees us having a proper go regardless of the points outcome. All that said, I think it was a mistake for Hoyle to say he'll be here in the Championship regardless. Realistically he'd probably leave anyway, but if not, he shouldn't have that absolute certainty in having the job here. |
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Post by El Mel on Sept 25, 2018 9:41:40 GMT 1
We should have brought a DOF in with premier league experience, somebody who knows the league and how it works.
I’ve said before that there is nobody at the club that has been here before, and I think it’s telling in our naivety in terms of tactics and transfers.
Last season when we needed to get points from City and Chelsea I stated we should play with 4 full backs, and it worked, so why not utilise it this season?
It would have given us the slimmest chances of getting something from either game. Defend with every resource you have and if the opportunity to counter attach comes, taje it.
Don’t over complicate it. Don’t send a team out that knows they have no chance.
Wagner is a young manager with little experience, and his decision to bring in Rebbe was one of the worst he’s made imo
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Post by Made In Yorkshire on Sept 25, 2018 9:44:49 GMT 1
DH may well honour his statement when he says he won't sack DW. Having a man to man, friend to friend chat though and mutually agreeing that things aren't working as well as they could and maybe it's time to go our separate ways is a totally different thing. This is how I imagine any parting scenario will play out.
Still far too early though to be thinking like this. The Spurs game could prove a revelation. I really do hope so.
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Post by tobbyg on Sept 25, 2018 9:53:53 GMT 1
If he is unsackable it’s not a problem for me. We’ve got the most successful manager I’ve seen at Town, if we do go down I’d love to see suggestions of a better option.
Oh and so far as putting your tin hat on for the happy clappers Grim, are you sure you haven’t slipped into the modern day knee jerk fan?
The way some have reacted to the poor start makes me think we deserve to revert back to league one.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2018 9:55:17 GMT 1
I don't think anyone in any job is "unsackable". Maybe in football terms, the only person i could ever think of falling into that category would have been Sir Alex at United, but he never got close to being in that position. Certainly Arsene Wenger should have gone years ago but when you win a lot and have a huge impact at a club, it does buy you more time.
I posted the same thing on the "Allardyce" thread that the only way i can see Wagner leaving is a disastrous run of results over the next few months. If we are heading into Christmas with around 6 points then one of DH or DW may think it is time for a change.
The relationship between DH and DW looks to be a strong one. We have helped DW as much as he has helped us and any decision to break that relationship is not going to be taken lightly.
The difference between the team now and this time last year is very different, the promotion boost playing a big part of that as well as having a nice run of fixtures. I hate all these comparisons with the results last season though.
It's a coincidence that the Spurs home match falls on the same weekend as last year, and maybe with Spurs not playing too well at the moment, we can grab something and give us a boost.
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Post by Farsley Terrier (UK product) on Sept 25, 2018 9:58:03 GMT 1
Think its a problem that comes with bringing in players whove only known playing in france, Holland etc. Its a very different game in terms of the speed and physicality and for some it can take a while to get used to it. Some just never do. Kongolo took to it immediately, but perhaps hes an exception. Schindler took about 4 months. Don;t think Flo has yet and hes been here a year, or Mounie. Think most of the summer signings just haven't found their feet yet. Problem is we really need them to. As far as loyalty to the manager goes, then Wagner has earned plenty for what hes done here and Im sure DH will show him that. But when DH said he wouldnt sack Wagner even if we went down, I think although he will have meant it, it perhaps depends how you go down. If we're fighting to stay up to the end but fail, thats one thing, but if we're completely cut adrift and showing no signs of making up the gap, then maybe thats another? If you ignore whats gone on in the past and just focus on the here and now, then Wagner is currently falling foul of 2 things that cost his predecessors their jobs. Grayson went after a lousy run of results . Currently its worse. Powell went cos the football was dull. Currently its worse. So loyalty or not, i think wagner is starting to look vulnerable To be fair, Wagner must realise himself that results are everything. Nobody want's him to go as he's been a fantastic addition to the club and changed us for the better. However as I've said before, we are currently in a run that is concerning. Do we want to remain a Premier League Club? I would hope we do because the chance may never come again. Where does that leave the Manager? I think Dean has shown incredible loyalty to Wagner, a loyalty he would not have been afforded anywhere else. |
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Post by harrythedog on Sept 25, 2018 10:10:24 GMT 1
Going back to the original post, i've thought this ever since the statement was made, it has probably led to a state of complacency. If Mr Hoyle and Mr Wagner have a vision for the club and it involves relegation and a bounce back a la Burnley and Shaun Dyche then so be it. Is DW going to be as loyal to DH though if we go down and other offers are made? There's one thing it will be a long hard season with a lot of falling out on here and on match days though  My gripe with DW and modern football in general is that he does chop and change, when the chips are down surely its time to pick the best 11, stick to a formation and get back to just what was so sucessfull in the first place. This is Town though so its just like us to get something on Saturday. |
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Post by colnevalleyblue on Sept 25, 2018 10:12:15 GMT 1
We arent really that far off IMO.
Problem is, we haven't improved on where we struggled last season and Wagner, recruitment team must take the blame for that.
They should not be sacked but recruitment was poor.
Still two widemen short for me.
Realistically though, we were always going to struggle this year.
We could easily have taken three points from Crystal Palace with abit more luck and then I dont think any of these threads would have appeared.
Its fine margins between success and failure though and my expectations this season and last were relegation anyway for Town so I didn't expect anything more than this.
Dont see any other manager as abetter option than Wagner either. Its his team, he's done it before, so surely as better placed than anyone to do it again.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2018 10:15:46 GMT 1
I wonder if the rumoured £5m a year salary for DW has anything to do with the internal relationships amongst the player/coaching staff. Also, how could he justifiably still be here in the championship on said salary?
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Post by teddytheterrier on Sept 25, 2018 10:20:12 GMT 1
Went to the game saturday with my brother who lives in Syston, hes more of a part time fan. Later in the evening when we were at Leicester Train station and he was watching Wagners post match interview (not something he normally does), and he asked me where Wagners charisma had gone? and that he looked like a man that was feeling the pressure. Wagner is not unsackable, if ut looks like he is taking us down a laughing stock then Dean will sack him. Wagner deserves more time as I thought we played well against Leicester, its such fine margins. If we are still without a win after 12/13 games and we are still touch with the likes of Cardiff, Newcastle and couple of others i'd be looking at making a change.
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Post by herefordaway on Sept 25, 2018 10:33:26 GMT 1
I don’t agree that most fans think we are in a malaise as a club.We are just in a tough league with an uneven playing field.
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Post by Farsley Terrier (UK product) on Sept 25, 2018 10:35:24 GMT 1
Went to the game saturday with my brother who lives in Syston, hes more of a part time fan. Later in the evening when we were at Leicester Train station and he was watching Wagners post match interview (not something he normally does), and he asked me where Wagners charisma had gone? and that he looked like a man that was feeling the pressure. Wagner is not unsackable, if ut looks like he is taking us down a laughing stock then Dean will sack him. Wagner deserves more time as I thought we played well against Leicester, its such fine margins. If we are still without a win after 12/13 games and we are still touch with the likes of Cardiff, Newcastle and couple of others i'd be looking at making a change. He does, but how long before he loses the one thing he had going for him in spades? His relationship with the fans. I for one would hate it if it did break down due to results. |
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Post by impact on Sept 25, 2018 10:36:48 GMT 1
Look at Wigan under Martinez. He did wonders there by keeping them up and Dave Whelan stuck with him throughout. They won something like 3 games up to February 1 year but stuck with a manager they knew was great for them and got out of it.
By saying Wagner will be here no matter what it takes the pressure off him and the players. It also stops any players thinking that if they're unhappy they can force him out, as we've seen at so many other clubs. It keeps the team together.
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Post by dugnet on Sept 25, 2018 10:43:40 GMT 1
I don't agree there is a "malaise" around the club at all, but I do think the harsh realities of playing in the Premier League are being faced. DW is not stupid, he is not arrogant, he is studious, he is reflective. As such, he will be looking at the overall position we are in and what can be done to compete and improve. At the moment we are caught between being able to compete and win games and, to a large degree, damage limitation.
I have posted elsewhere that recruitment has been our failing, which with our policy you have to accept, and that lack of Premier League quality is what we really lack.
I anticipate we will be relegated, although I would not be completely surprised if we started to get some results, and that will be a tough watch if it happens. The bigger picture is what we have gained from this last 3 years and how that shapes our future as a football club. I say that in the knowledge that watching your team getting beaten isn't easy, certainly not enjoyable, but we are in a far better position as a club.
It's hard to see the bigger picture at the moment but if we don't build on the last 3 years then we will be in a "malaise".
DW wants to improve and learn - I trust him in this respect completely. DH is naturally positive and successful, he is also honest and will want to continue to learn and develop. The players are proud and have heart, they won't go down without giving it their all. In the next 8 months this may not be enough, sorry that's a reality, but in the next 2-5 years this club should have a different mindset and identity from what we had in the previous 40 years. That is the real opportunity here, but as I say when you aren't winning games it is difficult to see that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2018 10:43:51 GMT 1
If we get relegated DW might walk
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Post by Torquayterrier on Sept 25, 2018 10:48:05 GMT 1
The stats for teams that haven't been in top flight for a long time (or ever) surviving their first season in Prem is sobering enough, for those that go on and survive the second season is grimmer reading still. We aren't uinique in being in this situation.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Sept 25, 2018 10:51:55 GMT 1
If he is unsackable it’s not a problem for me. We’ve got the most successful manager I’ve seen at Town, if we do go down I’d love to see suggestions of a better option. Oh and so far as putting your tin hat on for the happy clappers Grim, are you sure you haven’t slipped into the modern day knee jerk fan?
The way some have reacted to the poor start makes me think we deserve to revert back to league one. Maybe, but I don't think so - I've thought long and hard about it since the Cardiff game - there is something intangible that has changed and all I'm doing here is thinking aloud. I don't want him gone. I want him back. It's really hard to see where our next points are coming from at the moment and it's the first time during his tenure I've felt that way. I still feel he can come good but we need something to kick-start things. I just wonder how long we can keep saying "no rub of the green" and "fine margins" etc... |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 25, 2018 11:22:47 GMT 1
Nonsense imo .. how can you tell “something is wrong “ by turning up to a football stadium once a fortnight
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Post by Melc on Sept 25, 2018 11:37:12 GMT 1
Nonsense imo .. how can you tell “something is wrong “ by turning up to a football stadium once a fortnight Have you managed to tie your shoelaces yet! |
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Post by richhtfc on Sept 25, 2018 11:58:09 GMT 1
Let me start this thread by saying I do not advocate a change of manager, at all. DW has earned the right to get us out of this mess. However, I think most fans are in agreement that we are in a malaise as a club. Things are not right - the atmosphere has changed. I have wondered whether the conception that Wagner will be here at the end of the season come what may could be part of the issue. He has adopted a change of tactics that is not bringing results, and the players do not look confident. Gone is the high pressing, high tempo, high aggression defending. We seem set up to play a counter attacking game we're not equipped for, and it's fair to say many have questioned both the team selection and the summer transfer activity (albeit with hindsight in the latter case). I wonder whether the safety net that Wagner feels he has is actually a millstone round his neck, and is preventing him from making bold decisions, playing a bold way? I'll put my tin hat on now and wait for the happy clappy brigade to shoot me down, but I'm genuinely trying to get my head round what's changed, and am not advocating he goes any time soon. Or... we have an overexpectation problem caused by overachievement in the last two seasons... |
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