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Post by Million Dollar Babies on Apr 15, 2019 19:33:23 GMT 1
Holloway did the same, actually got more points than Wagner in their season in the Premier League. I take it he's a genius too? Wagner managed us in 154 games. I'm not sure how many games we went behind in, but we only won 4 times when we did. A genius would be able to do better than that surely Ok you've tripped yourself up in your first paragraph haven't you ? Bye More points in a premier league season than a genius managed. Id say that makes him a genius too
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Post by rastrick32 on Apr 15, 2019 19:33:34 GMT 1
I know it is all about opinions and I respect yours. However, I have to say that I find this staggering. What's staggering about it? He didn't evolve as a manager at this level. The performances went backwards in this division. He didn't bring in enough useful players over the summer. He released players that could have made an impact. He did decide to quit after less than 4 years as a 1st team coach. What, is staggering about that? Let's see if we can raise staggering to astounding? Would you have Wagner back instead of Jan? Would you have Wagner or Pulis? Wagner or Big Fat Sam? Moyes? Warnock? Powell, Robins, Clark, etc etc?
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Post by ritchie on Apr 15, 2019 19:44:41 GMT 1
i dont think its as simple as saying he's a defensive manager, pragmatic yes. at no point in his time here did he have top attackers...even in the league below....wells was probably our best attacker in terms of output, and he wasnt ever going to have a season like pukki for example no matter how wagner played. cant see a wells, kachunga, vlp strikeforce firing another team to promotion
we battered teams almost every week in the championship, not just in possession but in shots too. like in the PL, we lacked individual quality so it was all about a team that worked and squeezing out 1%s. but this idea we just contained safe possession and sat back all game, getting a lucky goal is bollocks.
dont expect him to play 'we'll score more than you' but i dont think his philosophy when he arrived was what he was doing towards the end...he got a bit stuck in the must not lose, 3-5-2 etc to try pick up points mentality, but again, lack of quality again a huge factor. maybe an attacking coach on his staff who could bring fresh ideas to the table wouldnt harm though
Although i cant see him at boro or celtic next season, he'd probably be better off going to celtic for a couple of seasons where he could focus more on attacking and getting his winning mojo, then leave to a leicester type club
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wigster
Andy Booth Terrier
[M0:0]
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Post by wigster on Apr 15, 2019 19:56:23 GMT 1
He was absolutely superb in everything he did for/to us for two years and got us promoted when we had no right to, in many ways.
Unfortunately for the last year he lost his impetus/enthusiasm/courage/support - I've no idea what it was, or whose fault, but we became a very defensive rather sterile team that often had matches where we didn't remotely look like scoring. As a manager he's certainly not one for massively attacking football and goal scoring. Whether that's because of the way he chose to play or the limitations of the squad he built I can only guess.
I've no idea what went wrong but for me, with hindsight, he should have left earlier than he did as we were destined for relegation long before he left - I don't know who decided who we'd buy/not buy but we'd spent a lot of money, for Town, on players that he didn't use. They either didn't suit the system or weren't very good.
It might have been because of the absence of our Chairman, through illness,but everything at Huddersfield seemed "tired" quite a time before he left - we were drifting without a dynamic leader, football-wise and club-wise, for months. We lost the wonderful identity that he built, and unfortunately it's still missing.
A great manager who deserves his place high up in Huddersfield Town history, but a reputation unfortunately tarnished a bit by the last 12 months.
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Post by colnevalleyblue on Apr 15, 2019 20:04:10 GMT 1
He didn't just improve the team but he changed the whole club, fans, players, directors...Everyone bought into him.
He is a legend.
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Post by theguy5 on Apr 15, 2019 20:07:37 GMT 1
i dont think its as simple as saying he's a defensive manager, pragmatic yes. at no point in his time here did he have top attackers...even in the league below....wells was probably our best attacker in terms of output, and he wasnt ever going to have a season like pukki for example no matter how wagner played. cant see a wells, kachunga, vlp strikeforce firing another team to promotion we battered teams almost every week in the championship, not just in possession but in shots too. like in the PL, we lacked individual quality so it was all about a team that worked and squeezing out 1%s. but this idea we just contained safe possession and sat back all game, getting a lucky goal is bollocks. dont expect him to play 'we'll score more than you' but i dont think his philosophy when he arrived was what he was doing towards the end...he got a bit stuck in the must not lose, 3-5-2 etc to try pick up points mentality, but again, lack of quality again a huge factor. maybe an attacking coach on his staff who could bring fresh ideas to the table wouldnt harm though Although i cant see him at boro or celtic next season, he'd probably be better off going to celtic for a couple of seasons where he could focus more on attacking and getting his winning mojo, then leave to a leicester type club After seeing VLP up close I have to admit it would take a genius to get him playing well! Thinking back to your team didn’t you have Kasey Palmer and Izzy Brown up front? Not terrible forwards tbf.
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Post by Porrohman on Apr 15, 2019 20:11:13 GMT 1
An amazing set up. Nonsense. We've lost several DoF's because the set up is anything but amazing. Who brought in Schindler, Hefele, Lowe, Kachunga, Quaner etc from his little black book and made Wells, Hogg, Smith VLP twice the players they were before he came? Man City contacted Huddersfield directly to take Mooy on loan because they liked Wagner and wanted him to take Mooy, showcase him and put him in the shop window. Do you think they make that call with any manager we've had before (that's still alive)? Not a chance. The man took this football club much further than it was ready for. The structure did not and is not fit for Premier League football, yet he still used his little black book to bring in Lossl, Flo etc etc and performed 2 miracles in 2 years. Eventually lack of resources and financial power has told and we've nosedived in what is probably the most financially challenging and strongest Premier League in history. The man took us on a journey hardly any of us thought we would see in our lifetimes. We'll still be singing "Oh What a Night" in 15 years time - the sad thing is that the club couldn't keep up with DW's rate of rapid progress. The man has made us a bigger, stronger and a more popular football club. If anyone wants to become a revisionist or denigrate his amazing achievements at this football club then you reserve the right. But I also reserve the right to call anyone that does that an absolute whopper. His little black book is a legacy of a time when he worked for one of the giants in European football. Doesn't make him a genius. He turned Wells into a defensive attacker as well. Every other attacker he's turned into snot. Wasn't it Webbers little black book ?
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Post by ritchie on Apr 15, 2019 20:16:46 GMT 1
i dont think its as simple as saying he's a defensive manager, pragmatic yes. at no point in his time here did he have top attackers...even in the league below....wells was probably our best attacker in terms of output, and he wasnt ever going to have a season like pukki for example no matter how wagner played. cant see a wells, kachunga, vlp strikeforce firing another team to promotion we battered teams almost every week in the championship, not just in possession but in shots too. like in the PL, we lacked individual quality so it was all about a team that worked and squeezing out 1%s. but this idea we just contained safe possession and sat back all game, getting a lucky goal is bollocks. dont expect him to play 'we'll score more than you' but i dont think his philosophy when he arrived was what he was doing towards the end...he got a bit stuck in the must not lose, 3-5-2 etc to try pick up points mentality, but again, lack of quality again a huge factor. maybe an attacking coach on his staff who could bring fresh ideas to the table wouldnt harm though Although i cant see him at boro or celtic next season, he'd probably be better off going to celtic for a couple of seasons where he could focus more on attacking and getting his winning mojo, then leave to a leicester type club After seeing VLP up close I have to admit it would take a genius to get him playing well! Thinking back to your team didn’t you have Kasey Palmer and Izzy Brown up front? Not terrible forwards tbf.yes fair point, slipped my mind!
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TTCMatt
Iain Dunn Terrier
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Post by TTCMatt on Apr 15, 2019 20:19:27 GMT 1
His little black book is a legacy of a time when he worked for one of the giants in European football. Doesn't make him a genius. He turned Wells into a defensive attacker as well. Every other attacker he's turned into snot. Wasn't it Webbers little black book ? Nope. Webber's black book got us VLP, Dempsey, Hiwula and Danny Ward. Andy Hughes worked with and against Palmer before and recommended him.
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Post by allan 1958 (OAF-WROY)(SSLFF) on Apr 15, 2019 20:21:46 GMT 1
To put into context, as only a Yorkshireman can. Worth every penny!
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Post by andyeastleake on Apr 15, 2019 20:25:01 GMT 1
Incredibly overrated by a lot of town fans. Is it even possible to overrate someone who takes you to the top division for the first time in 45 years? We'd spent eleven years outside the 2nd highest division and then had "form" figures in that league of 19th , 17th , 16th & 19th. Along comes Wagner and in his first full season we then achieve promotion and then stay in the top division on a minimal comparative budget. ...& some are carping that we've overated him or that he doesn't deserve to be described as a genius by fans who had given up even dreaming about something he achieved for the club. FFS.
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Post by Porrohman on Apr 15, 2019 20:35:26 GMT 1
i dont think its as simple as saying he's a defensive manager, pragmatic yes. at no point in his time here did he have top attackers...even in the league below....wells was probably our best attacker in terms of output, and he wasnt ever going to have a season like pukki for example no matter how wagner played. cant see a wells, kachunga, vlp strikeforce firing another team to promotion we battered teams almost every week in the championship, not just in possession but in shots too. like in the PL, we lacked individual quality so it was all about a team that worked and squeezing out 1%s. but this idea we just contained safe possession and sat back all game, getting a lucky goal is bollocks. dont expect him to play 'we'll score more than you' but i dont think his philosophy when he arrived was what he was doing towards the end...he got a bit stuck in the must not lose, 3-5-2 etc to try pick up points mentality, but again, lack of quality again a huge factor. maybe an attacking coach on his staff who could bring fresh ideas to the table wouldnt harm though Although i cant see him at boro or celtic next season, he'd probably be better off going to celtic for a couple of seasons where he could focus more on attacking and getting his winning mojo, then leave to a leicester type club After seeing VLP up close I have to admit it would take a genius to get him playing well! Thinking back to your team didn’t you have Kasey Palmer and Izzy Brown up front? Not terrible forwards tbf. No just not one as defensive as Pulis
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Post by davethesprout on Apr 15, 2019 20:39:37 GMT 1
Quite a few boro fans seem to think Wagner is a likely option we will go for once ‘he (not saying that name’ finally leaves in summer. There is a debate into how Wagner sets teams up though, we’ve had our fair share of defensive managers lately and many want someone a bit less cautious (boring). Was Wagner that way inclined? Ignoring the premiership season he got you promoted with a very low goals scored figure and you sneaked through the play offs scoring 1 goal. Was he limited by budget/the attacking players he could attract? Or did he just set up to defend first and hope to snatch a 1-0? I read through a few posts from the Wagner thread and tbh it sounds like a carbon copy of when we had Karanka, split opinions, some defend him because he was successful, others don’t like him because the football was boring. Also suffering from disasterous recruitment! Went from 10000 ish fans to Full 24000 in 2 years Was a Very nice Man with a lovely Family Never in my lifetime expected to see Town go up Again ! in my Case ( wonderful for my Son & Grandson ) Played Some Great Football in The early days 4-1 win at Leeds etc Not sure what went Wrong Was his fault the going up with minus Goal difference was only that he took his foot of the pedal when we were in the play offs He was not bothered who we played home or away first leg !
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Post by Porrohman on Apr 15, 2019 20:42:34 GMT 1
Wasn't it Webbers little black book ? Nope. Webber's black book got us VLP, Dempsey, Hiwula and Danny Ward. Andy Hughes worked with and against Palmer before and recommended him. The same Webber that spent most of his time in Germany and the one who found us Wagner 🤔
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Post by rastrick32 on Apr 15, 2019 20:45:56 GMT 1
Incredibly overrated by a lot of town fans. Is it even possible to overrate someone who takes you to the top division for the first time in 45 years? We'd spent eleven years outside the 2nd highest division and then had "form" figures in that league of 19th , 17th , 16th & 19th. Along comes Wagner and in his first full season we then achieve promotion and then stay in the top division on a minimal comparative budget. ...& some are carping that we've overated him or that he doesn't deserve to be described as a genius by fans who had given up even dreaming about something he achieved for the club. FFS. Andy, I could feel my blood boiling and then I realised that for some, there is never any satisfaction. They need more, more, more all the time, for ever. And even if they get everything for ever, they still wouldn't be satisfied. They are arguing for arguing sake. They are dementors.
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Post by Stewpot on Apr 15, 2019 20:59:41 GMT 1
Quite a few boro fans seem to think Wagner is a likely option we will go for once ‘he (not saying that name’ finally leaves in summer. There is a debate into how Wagner sets teams up though, we’ve had our fair share of defensive managers lately and many want someone a bit less cautious (boring). Was Wagner that way inclined? Ignoring the premiership season he got you promoted with a very low goals scored figure and you sneaked through the play offs scoring 1 goal. Was he limited by budget/the attacking players he could attract? Or did he just set up to defend first and hope to snatch a 1-0? I read through a few posts from the Wagner thread and tbh it sounds like a carbon copy of when we had Karanka, split opinions, some defend him because he was successful, others don’t like him because the football was boring. Also suffering from disasterous recruitment! Went from 10000 ish fans to Full 24000 in 2 years Was a Very nice Man with a lovely Family Never in my lifetime expected to see Town go up Again ! in my Case ( wonderful for my Son & Grandson ) Played Some Great Football in The early days 4-1 win at Leeds etc Not sure what went Wrong Was his fault the going up with minus Goal difference was only that he took his foot of the pedal when we were in the play offs He was not bothered who we played home or away first leg ! I think he was bothered as we all were who we faced in the semi final play offs. We knew didn't we Fulham would be 6th so finishing 3rd would have signed our death warrant coming up against them. Lost a few late on and a final day thumping by Cardiff 0-3 at home to leave us 5th and set up the meeting with the Wendies. I was worried at the time you can't turn it on and off to order like that, but boy did we come good again in those 3 play off games. None of that happened by accident, should have trusted him to know what he was doing!
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Apr 15, 2019 21:23:01 GMT 1
He took us up against all the odds and he made a silk purse out of a sows ear through motivation and some kind magic is the best way I can describe it and he gets legendary status for that but let's be honest he wasn't some tactical genius, his style was boring but effective. In the end he looked pretty lost, his signings were crap and he failed to address the goalscoring issue, he is a legend at Town but that's as far as his reputation goes in the game. Be interesting to see if he can repeat it elsewhere.
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jjamez
Iain Dunn Terrier
[M0:0]
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Post by jjamez on Apr 15, 2019 21:45:57 GMT 1
He's a methodical manager and in the championship during the promotion season he overloaded the flanks, but in order to do so we kept the ball until the opposition came forward far enough for us to try breaking. Against some sides he set up in a block with the aim of restricting their attacking threats and again breaking on them. The playoffs against Wednesday seemed to be two managers that didn't want to over commit and get caught on the break, it wasn't dire or anti football by any stretch, more a battle where neither party wanted to lose ground. Premier league sides caught on quicker into how to nullify our tactics, mainly because our speed of thought on the ball was/is slow at this level, but the season before players like mooy made their own room by being better than the opposition. In the Premier league we don't have that quality. So as said he changed to 3 at the back with wing backs to restrict the opposition and not allow them through, try to strangle the game for space, defend the flanks and the middle. Again I wouldn't say anti football, more making the most of what you have. We played nice pretty patterns in two thirds of the pitch and what not but dire in the final third where it matters. I think it's fair to say that the wagner that first came was vibrant and energetic, but be it stress of the job, bad reffing decisions or the monotony of losing, probably a combination, he looked to lose that spark and became a little bit of a shadow of himself, stuck in a rut, saying the same things and arguably after riding the of the that we had when we first came up, embracing the challenge of being the underdog, he got caught in a riptide and the underdog mentality became a small dog mentality and he never could escape it
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Post by El Mel on Apr 15, 2019 22:08:43 GMT 1
I guess I might give a little and compare his achievements to those of Ian Holloway, or maybe Paul Jewell 😂
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TTCMatt
Iain Dunn Terrier
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Post by TTCMatt on Apr 15, 2019 22:14:27 GMT 1
Nope. Webber's black book got us VLP, Dempsey, Hiwula and Danny Ward. Andy Hughes worked with and against Palmer before and recommended him. The same Webber that spent most of his time in Germany and the one who found us Wagner 🤔 He made final checks on the ones that Wagner came up with, but he actually spent more time in France than Germany re players. As an aside, Webber identified Mounie back in 2015 when he was taking in dozens of Ligue 2 games. A friend of mine worked in recruitment when Webber was there so got a fair steer on a lot of what he got up to.
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Post by specialun on Apr 15, 2019 22:39:47 GMT 1
He achieved miracles for 3 years Nov-15 to Nov-18
He worked miracles this season to the end of Nov-18.... most just didn’t appreciate it. The fans. The Board. They came to expect him to turn water to wine.
When you are in your second season in the premier league, weaken the worst attack in the league with the worst transfer decisions since selling Marcus Stewart and still keep in touch of those around you, that takes some doing
Before left P22 W2 D4 L16 F13 A37 PTS10 Since he left P12 W1 D1 L10 F6 A30 PTS4
Scoring less Conceding far more Worse results And that’s even with Mooy fit
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 22:49:54 GMT 1
He achieved miracles for 3 years Nov-15 to Nov-18 He worked miracles this season to the end of Nov-18.... most just didn’t appreciate it. The fans. The Board. They came to expect him to turn water to wine. When you are in your second season in the premier league, weaken the worst attack in the league with the worst transfer decisions since selling Marcus Stewart and still keep in touch of those around you, that takes some doing Before left P22 W2 D4 L16 F13 A37 PTS10 Since he left P12 W1 D1 L10 F6 A30 PTS4 Scoring less Conceding far more Worse results And that’s even with Mooy fit Your stats are slightly out, we have only gained 3 pts since he left. 1 defeat for Hudson and 10 defeats for Jan plus the Wolves win. DW had 5 draws and 2 wins.
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Post by Town Duppy on Apr 15, 2019 22:50:41 GMT 1
He achieved miracles for 3 years Nov-15 to Nov-18 He worked miracles this season to the end of Nov-18.... most just didn’t appreciate it. The fans. The Board. They came to expect him to turn water to wine. When you are in your second season in the premier league, weaken the worst attack in the league with the worst transfer decisions since selling Marcus Stewart and still keep in touch of those around you, that takes some doing Before left P22 W2 D4 L16 F13 A37 PTS10 Since he left P12 W1 D1 L10 F6 A30 PTS4 Scoring less Conceding far more Worse results And that’s even with Mooy fit Jan's lost 6 games less!
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Post by impact on Apr 15, 2019 22:52:28 GMT 1
He took us up against all the odds and he made a silk purse out of a sows ear through motivation and some kind magic is the best way I can describe it and he gets legendary status for that but let's be honest he wasn't some tactical genius, his style was boring but effective. In the end he looked pretty lost, his signings were crap and he failed to address the goalscoring issue, he is a legend at Town but that's as far as his reputation goes in the game. Be interesting to see if he can repeat it elsewhere. Boring. Wow. You wil never be pleased if you think 16/17 was boring. You may as well go and support Liverpool now if so because you will never enjoy it. And I guess you never have.
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Post by theguy5 on Apr 15, 2019 22:55:39 GMT 1
Conceded 30 goals in 12 games, ouch!
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Post by specialun on Apr 15, 2019 23:36:53 GMT 1
He achieved miracles for 3 years Nov-15 to Nov-18 He worked miracles this season to the end of Nov-18.... most just didn’t appreciate it. The fans. The Board. They came to expect him to turn water to wine. When you are in your second season in the premier league, weaken the worst attack in the league with the worst transfer decisions since selling Marcus Stewart and still keep in touch of those around you, that takes some doing Before left P22 W2 D4 L16 F13 A37 PTS10 Since he left P12 W1 D1 L10 F6 A30 PTS4 Scoring less Conceding far more Worse results And that’s even with Mooy fit Your stats are slightly out, we have only gained 3 pts since he left. 1 defeat for Hudson and 10 defeats for Jan plus the Wolves win. DW had 5 draws and 2 wins. Cheers - correct, I was trying to make things look better
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Post by specialun on Apr 15, 2019 23:38:19 GMT 1
He took us up against all the odds and he made a silk purse out of a sows ear through motivation and some kind magic is the best way I can describe it and he gets legendary status for that but let's be honest he wasn't some tactical genius, his style was boring but effective. In the end he looked pretty lost, his signings were crap and he failed to address the goalscoring issue, he is a legend at Town but that's as far as his reputation goes in the game. Be interesting to see if he can repeat it elsewhere. You can’t but a Ferrari with money for a Ford ... Why wasn’t he a tactical genius? He consistently overdelivered with a team greater than the sum of its parts. I include this season in that. To me that is exactly the sign of a tactical genius
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Post by shawsie on Apr 16, 2019 6:38:07 GMT 1
He took us up against all the odds and he made a silk purse out of a sows ear through motivation and some kind magic is the best way I can describe it and he gets legendary status for that but let's be honest he wasn't some tactical genius, his style was boring but effective. In the end he looked pretty lost, his signings were crap and he failed to address the goalscoring issue, he is a legend at Town but that's as far as his reputation goes in the game. Be interesting to see if he can repeat it elsewhere. Boring?! Are you being serious? It's not the football that was boring - it was the results. Getting gubbed by teams whose squads cost more than we have spent on players cumulatively in 111 years!!!! We missed the boat badly under rubery tbh - if dean and Wagner had been here back then we could have had years of relative prem success like Bolton did. Sadly we are in an era where the prem is slowly turning into la liga - a league occupied by 20 but where only 3 or 4 have any chance of competing for honours and the gap is getting bigger between new entrants and even halfway. 16 of the 20 clubs are now run by countries, wealth funds, billionaires. The remaining 4 - 2 are going down, Burnley have narrowly avoided it and West ham aren't far off billionaire status. Money doesn't rule everything.....but if we are being honest, Wagner wasn't backed here and suffers stick as a consequence. We got up on a shoestring, survived but then bought a new training complex not players. That may be a shrewd investment longer term......but we now need players and management of quality to fill it....can we get them?I'm not sure tbh, but as a fan of 40 years now, I don't think I will see another Wagner in my lifetime. Genius is an often overused word.....but to me it's befitting a man who came in, talked about no limits and then delivered it.His departure still rankles for me......I have no idea why it ended up with a hurried almost apologetic departure, but we've seen since how difficult a job it is when the recruitment goes wrong and some prima donnas want to live the life, but not sacrifice to do so.
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Apr 16, 2019 6:39:13 GMT 1
He took us up against all the odds and he made a silk purse out of a sows ear through motivation and some kind magic is the best way I can describe it and he gets legendary status for that but let's be honest he wasn't some tactical genius, his style was boring but effective. In the end he looked pretty lost, his signings were crap and he failed to address the goalscoring issue, he is a legend at Town but that's as far as his reputation goes in the game. Be interesting to see if he can repeat it elsewhere. Boring. Wow. You wil never be pleased if you think 16/17 was boring. You may as well go and support Liverpool now if so because you will never enjoy it. And I guess you never have. I never said it was boring to win promotion but in the main his football is boring, it's very conservative, based on high percentage of possession.
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Post by shawsie on Apr 16, 2019 6:42:09 GMT 1
Boring. Wow. You wil never be pleased if you think 16/17 was boring. You may as well go and support Liverpool now if so because you will never enjoy it. And I guess you never have. I never said it was boring to win promotion but in the main his football is boring, it's very conservative, based on high percentage of possession. Aye....I was bored shitless getting promoted to the top flight and staying up for the first time in nearly 50 years! Said it when he left be careful what you wish for. A dozen games on with a so called much more adventurous coach it's become a whole lot less tedious hasn't it?!
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