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Post by ACW on Jul 5, 2015 1:14:22 GMT 1
With the greatest of respect, unless you have personal experience of being suicidal you do not understand. I have experience from both sides. My brother committed s uicide at the age of 23 and I have regularly had s uicidal thoughts throughout my teenage and adult life. I haven't acted up them (obviously) but I have them pretty regularly and they are real. I therefore understand both sides having been a affected by the s uicide of a loved one and having had the same thoughts myself. Of course s uicide is self-centred, but it is also borne of desperation. Do you know what its like to want to take your own life? To be so utterly miserable, and powerless to change things for the better? Perhaps it shows a disregard for others, but when you are in such a desperate situation mentally it is extremely hard to think of others. My brother had a loving family and dozens of friends. He was a funny, caring and popular lad - far more so than I will ever be. But, he obviously got to a point where he couldn't face life anymore. He was an intelligent bloke so he would have known how much his death would have affected others, but the suicidal feeling overrode these. The way he took his life didn't directly affect anyone else in the way Carlisle suicide attempt did, but his death affected plenty of people afterwards. I don't blame him though - I miss him terribly, and often think that if there was any justice in the world he would still be here making people happy as he did when he was alive, but he isn't. He was obviously in a terrible place mentally and felt he couldn't go on - for whatever reason support was not an option and he decided to end his life. Its affected his loved ones terribly, but none of us to my knowledge apportion any blame to him. Now, don't get me wrong, what has happened to the driver who hit Carlisle is an absolute tragedy and my heart goes out to his family and loved ones, but to suggest Carlisle was in any mental state to rationally weigh up the consequences of his actions is ridiculous. He was so desperate and mentally ill he probably had little concept of how his actions would affect others. In the same way the driver will have reached a similar mental state. In criticising Carlisle do you extend the same blame to the driver? His death will also have affected many. This situation does not need blame. It is a tragic set of events for all involved. And I mean ALL. Apportioning blame achieves NOTHING. Why do we always look for someone to blame? Your views strike me as those of someone trying to apply rational thought to an irrational situation. And if you haven't been suicidal yourself you cannot understand. I feel for EVERYONE in this tragic story - no one is to blame. Sorry for your loss. It's a massive grey area. Guess I am very rational at most times in my thinking but have dealt with irrational people in both my personal life and working life too so have some level of understanding. Apportioning blame does achieve nothing but I bet the van drivers family and small children will still have it in their minds. Maybe Carlisle will have too. Generally, I am a pretty rational bloke myself - but being suicidal is often utterly irrational. I sometimes wake up feeling okay, and other days I wake up feeling like I didn't want to wake up. Little has changed between the two days. And sometimes I spend the whole day waiting for the moment I can fall asleep again so I can shut out the world. Those are not rational thoughts and feelings. Blame is a natural reaction - particularly when something like this happens - and I don't doubt both the driver's family and Carlisle himself are thinking in that way, but its still not justified. As a person capable of both rational and utterly irrational thought (often at the same time) I feel I can say that. Hopefully, in time, everyone involved will come to the same conclusion: this is a tragedy for all concerned and no one is to blame.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Jul 5, 2015 10:59:23 GMT 1
Sometimes there's a post that's made on this site that makes me just stop everything. A post that makes me lost for words. Grimois' post above is one of those. Wasn't expecting that. Thanks.. If anyone is interested and wants to gain a better understanding, I recommend Time to Change - lots of stories that will open a few eyes, expand a few minds and close a few mouths...
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jul 5, 2015 13:36:25 GMT 1
you describe the human condition..life is full of very big ups and very big downs...a lot of people are not mentally ill they are suffering 'life'... drugging them up after labelling it as an illness hasnt helped... allowing patterns of behaviour to go unchecked and unchallenged because we now believe its an illness that needs treatment rather than confronting hasnt helped either..
we carry on down this road and eventually everyone will believe they do things that they cant help doing or have thoughts they cant change because they are ill, not simply because they are human.
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Tinpot
Mental Health Support Group
I'm really tinpot
Posts: 22,123
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Post by Tinpot on Jul 5, 2015 18:46:40 GMT 1
Try typing in the word "suicide" without that icon coming up. It's a factor of the site, not insensitivity on the poster's part. . I know - I've just had to insert spaces in the word 's uicide' on my own response to Barbie's post to get rid of them. Didn't really help the serious message I was trying to get across. It came across, and like grimois' post, added a lot to the discussion imo.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Jul 5, 2015 21:03:01 GMT 1
you describe the human condition..life is full of very big ups and very big downs...a lot of people are not mentally ill they are suffering 'life'... drugging them up after labelling it as an illness hasnt helped... allowing patterns of behaviour to go unchecked and unchallenged because we now believe its an illness that needs treatment rather than confronting hasnt helped either.. we carry on down this road and eventually everyone will believe they do things that they cant help doing or have thoughts they cant change because they are ill, not simply because they are human. The key thing, Galph, is that the mentally ill do not experience the ups and downs of life in the same way. At the risk of quouting Ronan Keating, life is a rollercoaster for most. But if you're mentally ill what you should find as a gentle slope or slight dip you experience as a gapig chasm, a massive abyss from which you can feel like no escape. From your posts, it's clear that you seem to be sceptical about what it's like, and have a naive view of the types of treatment available. you're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but I'd really recommend you educate yourself, or else you risk speaking from a position of massive ignorance. Or, as two eminently more eloquent and qualified folks would say:
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jul 5, 2015 21:27:10 GMT 1
Grimois..
I deal everday with the effects of ptsd..I also deal everyday with people who should have ptsd and a million other mental health conditions , but they dont..
Please dont ask me to educate myself..
Its condescending and its a big part of the problems we now face that anyone who speaks against drugging and mollycoddling and excusing is immediately condemmed as 'ignorant'...
we educate ourselves to accept that millions now consider themselves mentally ill and large numbers are now deciding that they cant cope/work with it, when in reality a lot of the 'conditions' are in illness terms a mere cold, which most people now just get on with life whilst they have it..
there is a massive difference between a cold and full on flu and we really have to get a grip on the spectum of what are being accepted as mental illness in the same way..
As I said earlier the numbers of suicides has gone up very little but those who continually threaten it or do themselves minor injury has gone up to a point where the services for those genuinely in need of help are not stretched, they broke a few years ago... self induced mental illness is the main cause followed by drugging of people with very minor problems that become huge after being addicted to the drugs and the percieved crutch they give them..
we have simply got to try different approaches, the system cant cope with the way we are doing it now..
I am not unsympathetic to the real sufferers buut its become a get out clause and an escape from responsibility for so many...
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Post by dyhterrier on Jul 5, 2015 22:00:48 GMT 1
You talk about it being about life's ups and downs, it can play a part but isn't necessarily the cause. When you look at some of the people who have taken their own lives who have been in the public eye eg Gary Speed, Robin Williams, many outsiders would think they had everything to live for, clearly they didn't.
Like one of the earlier posters said, sometimes you wake up and IT is there, no rhyme or reason, no rational explanation. A blackness of complete desolation, no fathomable reason. Nothing serious in my life to worry about, IT just arrives. Medication can soften the blow, make these times shorter and rarer.
I find it sad you are unable to have any empathy with people who suffer depression but that's your right, thankfully there is generally greater awareness and understanding of mental illness these days. As well as being a sad git who can't cope with life's ups and downs, I am eternally grateful I can through my work help other sad gits and therefore help myself.
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Post by Gag_N_Bone_Man on Jul 8, 2015 21:26:38 GMT 1
Grimois.. I deal everday with the effects of ptsd..I also deal everyday with people who should have ptsd and a million other mental health conditions , but they dont.. Please dont ask me to educate myself.. Its condescending and its a big part of the problems we now face that anyone who speaks against drugging and mollycoddling and excusing is immediately condemmed as 'ignorant'... we educate ourselves to accept that millions now consider themselves mentally ill and large numbers are now deciding that they cant cope/work with it, when in reality a lot of the 'conditions' are in illness terms a mere cold, which most people now just get on with life whilst they have it.. there is a massive difference between a cold and full on flu and we really have to get a grip on the spectum of what are being accepted as mental illness in the same way.. As I said earlier the numbers of suicides has gone up very little but those who continually threaten it or do themselves minor injury has gone up to a point where the services for those genuinely in need of help are not stretched, they broke a few years ago... self induced mental illness is the main cause followed by drugging of people with very minor problems that become huge after being addicted to the drugs and the percieved crutch they give them.. we have simply got to try different approaches, the system cant cope with the way we are doing it now.. I am not unsympathetic to the real sufferers buut its become a get out clause and an escape from responsibility for so many... Straight question - have you ever been diagnosed with a mental health condition your self, or are you qualified to diagnose (I seriously doubt both based on your comments)? If the answer is yes, fine. If the answer is no, your sentiment and lack of understanding (which comes from a natural position of ingorance due to not being possibly able to understand) are a part of a wider problem. I do agree that too many people use the term "depression" freely and often without basis. However, your awareness of this surely should mean that you take the issue more seriously - phrases like "drugging and molllycoddling" are (IMO) dangerous. Imagine for a moment someone with a serious concern happened to read this thread. Would they be more or less likely to seek help or advice having read your comments? I;d sonner have 100 people misdiagnosed as depressed and given treatment they may not need than one miss out and do themselves or others harm in the way the subject matter of this thread did. so, I'm not saying (necesarily) that your views are wrong but the tone and language you have used are potentially very damaging. If someone says they have the flu, but has a cold, and you say "pull yourslef together" or call bullshit, no real harm is done. If someone says they are depressed and you think they're not and you say "pull yourslef together" or call bullshit, the consequences could be extremely dire. So, excuse my condescension, but you see I feel extremely strongly about this and am frankly sick and tired of seeing.reading/hearing opinions like those that prompted my original post as they are the sort of thing that delayed my own attempt to get help and that delay nearly cost me everything.
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