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Post by wtd on May 23, 2015 12:41:47 GMT 1
Only on here could Duane Holmes be put against other small players love Law, Messi and Silva. They may be similar in stature but slightly different in ability otherwise he wouldn't be at Town Sent from my SM-G900F using proboards I did make this point earlier. The 'there are many brilliant small players' theory only applies IF you are a brilliant small player. Most brilliant small players are well into their stride and playing for the first team well before they are 20. Time for Duane to deliver, I'm afraid.
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Post by shawsie on May 23, 2015 13:01:50 GMT 1
You seem to be under the illusion that Scannell has somehow developed a time machine and gone back and changed history. All that post was bang on when it was posted.. I wasn't a fan of him and he had looked uninterested a lot of the time with lousy stats to back that up, and but for the intervention of Powell his next club would have been 'like Brentford' , only not as good as in Millwall- a soon to be League 1 club. Obviously the way he played last season changed my opinion of him and I like him a lot now. But it doesn't alter how crap hed been for the 2 previous seasons or how right everyone had been to think he'd been an expensive flop. Far from proving people wrong, hes proved them RIGHT! - That he had a lot of ability but not the effort or commitment to actually show it. Bit difficult to do much when you only get fleeting glimpses of action whilst the manager at the times favourites dish up drivel week in week out and keep getting picked! Up to Xmas I could understand it because the team were performing.......from Xmas onwards we may as well have picked a cardboard cut out as bloody hammill......and before his hat trick on the final day ward was hardly better! Scanz was admittedly poor, but it was hardly surprising IMO.........the yr before he got motm at Leicester then hardly featured for weeks. It's not like the transformation is relatively small.............he's arguably our most saleable commodity in terms of transfer fee now!
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Post by terraceterrier on May 23, 2015 13:43:54 GMT 1
Only on here could Duane Holmes be put against other small players love Law, Messi and Silva. They may be similar in stature but slightly different in ability otherwise he wouldn't be at Town Sent from my SM-G900F using proboards I did make this point earlier. The 'there are many brilliant small players' theory only applies IF you are a brilliant small player. Most brilliant small players are well into their stride and playing for the first team well before they are 20. Time for Duane to deliver, I'm afraid.
To deliver he needs persuade CP to have the faith to use him, he must dominate games at U21 level and add goals to his repertoire if this is going to happen. There seems to be a consensus with some on here that if you aren't in the first team by 20/21 you simply aren't good enough ....foolish to write any player off before they graduate above U21 squad imo....players like Holmes Billing Bojaj Tronstad and Charles big season ahead be it in the U21's or on loan.
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Post by Doc Halladay 32 on May 23, 2015 14:36:29 GMT 1
You seem to be under the illusion that Scannell has somehow developed a time machine and gone back and changed history. All that post was bang on when it was posted.. I wasn't a fan of him and he had looked uninterested a lot of the time with lousy stats to back that up, and but for the intervention of Powell his next club would have been 'like Brentford' , only not as good as in Millwall- a soon to be League 1 club. Obviously the way he played last season changed my opinion of him and I like him a lot now. But it doesn't alter how crap hed been for the 2 previous seasons or how right everyone had been to think he'd been an expensive flop. Far from proving people wrong, hes proved them RIGHT! - That he had a lot of ability but not the effort or commitment to actually show it. Bit difficult to do much when you only get fleeting glimpses of action whilst the manager at the times favourites dish up drivel week in week out and keep getting picked! Up to Xmas I could understand it because the team were performing.......from Xmas onwards we may as well have picked a cardboard cut out as bloody hammill......and before his hat trick on the final day ward was hardly better! Scanz was admittedly poor, but it was hardly surprising IMO.........the yr before he got motm at Leicester then hardly featured for weeks. It's not like the transformation is relatively small.............he's arguably our most saleable commodity in terms of transfer fee now! Scannell performed for Lillis before and after Robins' arrival, Robins showed patience with Hammill and Ward when they were poor, but he did not afford Scannell the same luxury, immediately dropping him after EVERY single start of 2013/4 season, even after a MOM display in the penultimate game against Leicester. We have seen this season how he can perform when given a run of games not a spot start here or there. Long may it continue, who knows Lolley and Holmes may grab their chance but given that Holmes has yet to start his 3rd game for the club and Lolley has yet to start his 5th game for the club, both have shown great ability and potential in glimpses but IMO that's not enough to show they are not up to it. It is too early to rule them out yet, and Holmes has 2 years on Lolley. Before this season, Bunn had 3 subs appearances for us, 2 for a minute and one of 15 mins, he turned 22 in November so I find it baffling that Holmes should have shown more by age 20.
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Post by specialun on May 23, 2015 17:21:55 GMT 1
I'd stick with Holmes - natural talent, quick feet, pass and move, direct etc.
Weaknesses to his game yes but shouldn't we work on them - How many on here (me definitely included) would have written Scannell off dozens of times - 3 assists in 80 games was horrendous, but we've stuck with him, Lillis gave him confidence and credit to Powell for working with him. Improved so much defensively himself, work rate and to a degree end product. If you'd have told me this time last year he'd score 4 and make 5 assists in 1 season I'd have told you to see a doctor. 4 goals and 5 assist isn't itself great, not enough, but the point his game is far improved!
Robins didn't help Holmes by playing him in bits / pieces pre season - you'll only learn to play 90 minutes by playing 90 minutes. Same with Lolley.
I'd have liked Holmes om the bench more than Madjweski towards the end of the season - I'd have liked us to have given him more first team exposure.
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Post by waltzingthecowshed on May 23, 2015 17:30:17 GMT 1
I'd stick with Holmes - natural talent, quick feet, pass and move, direct etc. Weaknesses to his game yes but shouldn't we work on them - How many on here (me definitely included) would have written Scannell off dozens of times - 3 assists in 80 games was horrendous, but we've stuck with him, Lillis gave him confidence and credit to Powell for working with him. Improved so much defensively himself, work rate and to a degree end product. If you'd have told me this time last year he'd score 4 and make 5 assists in 1 season I'd have told you to see a doctor. 4 goals and 5 assist isn't itself great, not enough, but the point his game is far improved!
Robins didn't help Holmes by playing him in bits / pieces pre season - you'll only learn to play 90 minutes by playing 90 minutes. Same with Lolley.
I'd have liked Holmes om the bench more than Madjweski towards the end of the season - I'd have liked us to have given him more first team exposure.Spot on
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Post by Captainslapper on May 24, 2015 0:20:26 GMT 1
Who are you going to leave out to play Holmes for 90 minutes though? Butterfield? Vaughan? Wells? Miller? Can't see it myself and why on earth would you? Because of one great little run against Blackpool once? He isn't good enough to be given 90 minutes so he can learn to play a full game and we haven't been good to carry him whilst he ( hopefully) learns. Thats why we loaned him out- so he could learn somewhere else at a lower level. But those clubs decided he wasn't good enough for them either.
I don't think the comparison with Scannell stands up. Poor as he was in the previous 2 seasons, at least hed shown in the past that he was up to it and could perform well- and stand up to the physical challenges of first team football. With him it was an application issue, not an ability or strength issue. Holmes hasn't come close to showing that.
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Post by Nickhudds.UTT on May 24, 2015 6:56:07 GMT 1
Who are you going to leave out to play Holmes for 90 minutes though? Butterfield? Vaughan? Wells? Miller? Can't see it myself and why on earth would you? Because of one great little run against Blackpool once? He isn't good enough to be given 90 minutes so he can learn to play a full game and we haven't been good to carry him whilst he ( hopefully) learns. Thats why we loaned him out- so he could learn somewhere else at a lower level. But those clubs decided he wasn't good enough for them either. I don't think the comparison with Scannell stands up. Poor as he was in the previous 2 seasons, at least hed shown in the past that he was up to it and could perform well- and stand up to the physical challenges of first team football. With him it was an application issue, not an ability or strength issue. Holmes hasn't come close to showing that. Good post. Scanners is twice he player imo. HOLMES hasn't done anything yet ?
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Post by htfcfcfc on May 24, 2015 7:31:09 GMT 1
Didn't Scannell go on some intense summer training course off his own back in order to be in better shape for this season? Seems to have coincided with his better form and therefore run in the team
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on May 24, 2015 10:25:59 GMT 1
Who are you going to leave out to play Holmes for 90 minutes though? Butterfield? Vaughan? Wells? Miller? Can't see it myself and why on earth would you? Because of one great little run against Blackpool once? He isn't good enough to be given 90 minutes so he can learn to play a full game and we haven't been good to carry him whilst he ( hopefully) learns. Thats why we loaned him out- so he could learn somewhere else at a lower level. But those clubs decided he wasn't good enough for them either. I don't think the comparison with Scannell stands up. Poor as he was in the previous 2 seasons, at least hed shown in the past that he was up to it and could perform well- and stand up to the physical challenges of first team football. With him it was an application issue, not an ability or strength issue. Holmes hasn't come close to showing that. Does it have to be 90 minutes though? 10 minutes here, half an hour there. On the bench as an attacking option doesn't seem unreasonable. Not saying he'll make it, but in that game against Blackpool he showed a great deal of potential. IF we can harness that and build on it, we could have a hell of a player on our hands.
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Tinpot
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Post by Tinpot on May 24, 2015 10:29:11 GMT 1
You seem to be under the illusion that Scannell has somehow developed a time machine and gone back and changed history. All that post was bang on when it was posted.. I wasn't a fan of him and he had looked uninterested a lot of the time with lousy stats to back that up, and but for the intervention of Powell his next club would have been 'like Brentford' , only not as good as in Millwall- a soon to be League 1 club. Obviously the way he played last season changed my opinion of him and I like him a lot now. But it doesn't alter how crap hed been for the 2 previous seasons or how right everyone had been to think he'd been an expensive flop. Far from proving people wrong, hes proved them RIGHT! - That he had a lot of ability but not the effort or commitment to actually show it. If Scannell hasn't proven people wrong, Brentford certainly have!
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 10:59:55 GMT 1
I'd stick with Holmes - natural talent, quick feet, pass and move, direct etc. Weaknesses to his game yes but shouldn't we work on them - How many on here (me definitely included) would have written Scannell off dozens of times - 3 assists in 80 games was horrendous, but we've stuck with him, Lillis gave him confidence and credit to Powell for working with him. Improved so much defensively himself, work rate and to a degree end product. If you'd have told me this time last year he'd score 4 and make 5 assists in 1 season I'd have told you to see a doctor. 4 goals and 5 assist isn't itself great, not enough, but the point his game is far improved! Robins didn't help Holmes by playing him in bits / pieces pre season - you'll only learn to play 90 minutes by playing 90 minutes. Same with Lolley. I'd have liked Holmes om the bench more than Madjweski towards the end of the season - I'd have liked us to have given him more first team exposure. The thing with assists is that they rely on the player on the end of the pass/cross to stick it in the net. I'd love to see the stat for the amount of chances that Scannell created last season. And then there are those balls that he flashes across goal but there is no one throwing themselves at it like they should
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Post by gledholt terrier on May 24, 2015 11:18:13 GMT 1
I'd stick with Holmes - natural talent, quick feet, pass and move, direct etc. Weaknesses to his game yes but shouldn't we work on them - How many on here (me definitely included) would have written Scannell off dozens of times - 3 assists in 80 games was horrendous, but we've stuck with him, Lillis gave him confidence and credit to Powell for working with him. Improved so much defensively himself, work rate and to a degree end product. If you'd have told me this time last year he'd score 4 and make 5 assists in 1 season I'd have told you to see a doctor. 4 goals and 5 assist isn't itself great, not enough, but the point his game is far improved! Robins didn't help Holmes by playing him in bits / pieces pre season - you'll only learn to play 90 minutes by playing 90 minutes. Same with Lolley. I'd have liked Holmes om the bench more than Madjweski towards the end of the season - I'd have liked us to have given him more first team exposure. The thing with assists is that they rely on the player on the end of the pass/cross to stick it in the net. I'd love to see the stat for the amount of chances that Scannell created last season. And then there are those balls that he flashes across goal but there is no one throwing themselves at it like they should Quite right. Scannell has one particular ball which he sends in low and hard which are wasted through a lack of anticipation, awareness or planning. The Butterfield video also showed some fantastic deliveries wasted by the front men.
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Post by Chips Longhorn on May 24, 2015 11:36:51 GMT 1
To me, "assist" stats are the biggest nonsense of them all. Scannell scored 4 and had 5 assists. As an offensive player. He played just about every game. So surely he should be strung up? Well no, he was right at the top of our POTS polls. That's because he had a great season. How do we know? Because we saw it with our EYES. Trust your eyes people and stop getting so hung up on assist stats
EDIT Durham was right the other night for mocking Cazorla's stats vs Sunderland. He completed a season-high 154 passes in Arsenal's 0-0 draw.. Whoop de doo did anyone see that yawnfest?
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Post by Captainslapper on May 24, 2015 20:48:55 GMT 1
Who are you going to leave out to play Holmes for 90 minutes though? Butterfield? Vaughan? Wells? Miller? Can't see it myself and why on earth would you? Because of one great little run against Blackpool once? He isn't good enough to be given 90 minutes so he can learn to play a full game and we haven't been good to carry him whilst he ( hopefully) learns. Thats why we loaned him out- so he could learn somewhere else at a lower level. But those clubs decided he wasn't good enough for them either. I don't think the comparison with Scannell stands up. Poor as he was in the previous 2 seasons, at least hed shown in the past that he was up to it and could perform well- and stand up to the physical challenges of first team football. With him it was an application issue, not an ability or strength issue. Holmes hasn't come close to showing that. Does it have to be 90 minutes though? 10 minutes here, half an hour there. On the bench as an attacking option doesn't seem unreasonable. Not saying he'll make it, but in that game against Blackpool he showed a great deal of potential. IF we can harness that and build on it, we could have a hell of a player on our hands. Just replying to this comment by specialun-' Robins didn't help Holmes by playing him in bits / pieces pre season - you'll only learn to play 90 minutes by playing 90 minutes.' the game against Blackpool he was great. But theres been nothing at all even close to it since. Just a kid looking out of his depth both in terms of ability and physique. If Town are going to persevere longer with him then he needs loaning out so he can stop playing against teenagers where hes very comfortable, and start playing against men. If a league club won't take him then try a non league one. It would help his development more than our U21s
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Post by efesodje23 on May 24, 2015 22:11:51 GMT 1
Duane played enough games this year to activate the ice-cream clause in his contract.
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Post by AndySk on May 25, 2015 13:51:18 GMT 1
If someone like Lolley who is clearly ready for the first XI gets hardly any time on the pitch, Duane has no chance
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 7:46:08 GMT 1
If someone like Lolley who is clearly ready for the first XI gets hardly any time on the pitch, Duane has no chance lINK
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Post by benmsmith4 on Jul 19, 2015 17:54:25 GMT 1
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Post by htfcfcfc on Jul 19, 2015 17:56:29 GMT 1
Good, I hope 2-3 others do the same - much better finding a club that suits them and us and playing competitive football
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 18:06:15 GMT 1
Bit screwed if he goes out on loan, does well and then refuses to sign a contract in January/Feb time. Someone could get themselves a decent player on a free next summer
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htfc63
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Post by htfc63 on Jul 19, 2015 18:07:03 GMT 1
Lolley has spent a few weeks this summer working on his game down at St Georges national training centre. Maybe Holmes should have done the same as from watching him at development level this has to be his last season with us unless he dramatically improves his game.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 18:10:45 GMT 1
Bit difficult to do much when you only get fleeting glimpses of action whilst the manager at the times favourites dish up drivel week in week out and keep getting picked! Up to Xmas I could understand it because the team were performing.......from Xmas onwards we may as well have picked a cardboard cut out as bloody hammill......and before his hat trick on the final day ward was hardly better! Scanz was admittedly poor, but it was hardly surprising IMO.........the yr before he got motm at Leicester then hardly featured for weeks. It's not like the transformation is relatively small.............he's arguably our most saleable commodity in terms of transfer fee now! Scannell performed for Lillis before and after Robins' arrival, Robins showed patience with Hammill and Ward when they were poor, but he did not afford Scannell the same luxury, immediately dropping him after EVERY single start of 2013/4 season, even after a MOM display in the penultimate game against Leicester. We have seen this season how he can perform when given a run of games not a spot start here or there. Long may it continue, who knows Lolley and Holmes may grab their chance but given that Holmes has yet to start his 3rd game for the club and Lolley has yet to start his 5th game for the club, both have shown great ability and potential in glimpses but IMO that's not enough to show they are not up to it. It is too early to rule them out yet, and Holmes has 2 years on Lolley. Before this season, Bunn had 3 subs appearances for us, 2 for a minute and one of 15 mins, he turned 22 in November so I find it baffling that Holmes should have shown more by age 20. I agree, for me though, the most concerning thing about him is his apparent lack of impact when he's gone out on loan, not that he hasn't done much with the scraps of opportunity he's had playing for town. ( As you seem to be suggesting Doc, it's not really fair to judge him for town yet). Were fortunate enough now, to have some very good players well before him in the packing order, so I think he really needs to go out on loan to league 1 or even 2 so he's playing every week. Hopefully then he will have the opportunity to show what he can do with a decent run in someones team.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 18:14:27 GMT 1
The only thing that cocked up those loan spells for Holmes, was Holmes himself. His attitude throughout both spells and most of his recent time at Town has been crap.
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Post by benmsmith4 on Jul 19, 2015 18:19:50 GMT 1
The only thing that cocked up those loan spells for Holmes, was Holmes himself. His attitude throughout both spells and most of his recent time at Town has been crap. How so? And how do you know that?
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jul 19, 2015 18:42:58 GMT 1
The only thing that cocked up those loan spells for Holmes, was Holmes himself. His attitude throughout both spells and most of his recent time at Town has been crap. And you based this on what exactly? He started five games at Yeovil playing wide on the right and then that great judge of character Gary Johnson sent him back along with two other loan players at the time. Johnson subsequently lead Yeovil to two relegations. At Bury, Holmes spent most of his games on the bench before Town brought him back but Bury won something like eight games in a row and probably didn't want to change a winning team (remember Sean Morrison in his first loan spell at Town when we went seven games without conceding and he didn't play a single game). His attitude at Town in recent times can't have been too crap or why would he have been given another contract?
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Post by hudmat on Jul 19, 2015 18:53:31 GMT 1
I thought Holmes would be a good understudy to Butterfield but with Dempsey coming in I cant see a way through to the first team for him. He played some great balls through at Guiseley and was at the heart of plenty of our attacking plays. Seems a shame to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 19:06:21 GMT 1
The only thing that cocked up those loan spells for Holmes, was Holmes himself. His attitude throughout both spells and most of his recent time at Town has been crap. And you based this on what exactly? He started five games at Yeovil playing wide on the right and then that great judge of character Gary Johnson sent him back along with two other loan players at the time. Johnson subsequently lead Yeovil to two relegations. At Bury, Holmes spent most of his games on the bench before Town brought him back but Bury won something like eight games in a row and probably didn't want to change a winning team (remember Sean Morrison in his first loan spell at Town when we went seven games without conceding and he didn't play a single game). His attitude at Town in recent times can't have been too crap or why would he have been given another contract? Believe what you want but I'm telling you the truth.
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Jul 19, 2015 19:07:45 GMT 1
The only thing that cocked up those loan spells for Holmes, was Holmes himself. His attitude throughout both spells and most of his recent time at Town has been crap. How so? And how do you know that? I saw Bury at AFC Wimbledon last season whilst Holmes was on loan. His body language that day wasn't good from what I saw. Holmes was a sub and sat on the bench in the furthest corner from where the Bury manager was stood. He spent most of the time either leaning against the back of the dugout or contemplating his feet. I think he got up just the once to stretch his legs. As soon as Bury made their third substitution Holmes strolled round the pitch and disappeared into the changing rooms. Ten minutes or so later he was back on the bench, sat in the corner again. Just saying what I saw........
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Post by Frankiesleftpeg on Jul 19, 2015 19:11:17 GMT 1
How so? And how do you know that? I saw Bury at AFC Wimbledon last season whilst Holmes was on loan. His body language that day wasn't good from what I saw. Holmes was a sub and sat on the bench in the furthest corner from where the Bury manager was stood. He spent most of the time either leaning against the back of the dugout or contemplating his feet. I think he got up just the once to stretch his legs. As soon as Bury made their third substitution Holmes strolled round the pitch and disappeared into the changing rooms. Ten minutes or so later he was back on the bench, sat in the corner again. Just saying what I saw........ Obviously Powell's influence.
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