Referees

[deepc]

Offence takes place when the player stood in an offside position becomes active.

Imagine a gale force wind blowing down the field. Player stood offside - wind holds ball up and blows back towards kicker - offside player chases back and gets involved on the edge of his own box

Indirect free kick for offside on the edge of the box.

Barking

[andyeastleake]

Oct 20, 2016 16:47:50 GMT 1 Terriersmad said:

But the offence takes place when the ball is played. No sooner, no later. Whichever fool thought up this change has clearly not thought it through.

Sorry TM I think you're interpreting the law incorrectly (which was news to me as well). Whether you're in an offside position or not is when the ball is played.

However it's not an offence to be in an offside position, under the revised law the offence takes place if having been in an offside position you become involved in active play by touching the ball or interfering with an opponent in a variety of ways.

The free kick is taken where the offence occurs (which isn't likely to be where you were when the ball was played).

Totally agree it is a strange change and TBH, judging by reactions last night (including that of the linesman) and on here, one that hasn't been publicised that well.

[kennyk2]

Oct 17, 2016 7:05:11 GMT 1 kennyk2 said:

Oct 17, 2016 6:44:06 GMT 1 unbeatenfor10years said:

Can't believe the ref didn't realise who we are and this was our biggest crowd ever.

Disgraceful not to let us win, and ruined my weekend. He should have allowed us to keep taking corners until we scored.

Thank god we are still unbeaten this millennium.

Ah! Welcome to another of our Wednesday friends. So excited the morning after that you just couldn't sleep and created an account at 06.30 in the morning!

But back to referees. If anyone has the inclination the following by Garciano et al 2001 is worth skimming. I noticed the bit regarding injury time and the fact that referees award much more injury time if the home team is behind. Sort of fits in with the, How much injury time?" claim. link

Here's another, but I'll have to try and get my thinking cap on so I'll have a look at this later - Are football referees really biased and inconsistent? Evidence on the incidence of disciplinary sanction in the English Premier League link

And here's another, Evidence for referree bias in football link

OK. I've managed to look through some of this. Best paper is the final one, Dohmen and Sauermann (2015) Referee Bias. Some interesting points.

Goals
There is tentative evidence that expert post hoc judgement suggests that goals awarded to the home team are less likely to be awarded correctly and that the away team is awarded fewer disputable goals. In other words, the home side is awarded more illegitimate goals than the away side.

Penalty Kicks
More clear cut here. There is home team bias where a penalty kick is wrongly awarded or disputable when the home team is one goal behind. Example from the Bundesliga states that in the 2000/1 season home teams were awarded 81% of all penalty kicks that should have been legitimately awarded, but away teams only 51%. In the Premier League home teams receive significantly more penalties than the Bundesliga example.

Referees tend to award fewer disputable/unjustified penalty kicks when the crowd is separated from the filed by an athletics track (crowd intimidation is less). in other words referee bias is weaker the further the ref is away from the crowd.

Yellow/Red cards
Contrasting results here. One study suggests that home players are less likely to receive yellow cards, whereas another study could find no statistical significance here. Red cards are not significant.

Which doesn't explain why Town always seem to get f*cked over by referees

[Terriersmad]

Oct 20, 2016 17:05:18 GMT 1 andyeastleake said:

Oct 20, 2016 16:47:50 GMT 1 Terriersmad said:

But the offence takes place when the ball is played. No sooner, no later. Whichever fool thought up this change has clearly not thought it through.

Sorry TM I think you're interpreting the law incorrectly (which was news to me as well). Whether you're in an offside position or not is when the ball is played.

However it's not an offence to be in an offside position, under the revised law the offence takes place if having been in an offside position you become involved in active play by touching the ball or interfering with an opponent in a variety of ways.

The free kick is taken where the offence occurs (which isn't likely to be where you were when the ball was played).

Totally agree it is a strange change and TBH, judging by reactions last night (including that of the linesman) and on here, one that hasn't been publicised that well.

Load of rubbish, isn't it? I think this new ruling comes from a fundamental misunderstanding about offside at the highest level, as I didn't explain very well above. Anyway, the fact that people who've been immersed in football all their lives don't understand it and don't know how to apply it - whether fans or officials (players don't count, they get caught offside looking down the line, which takes a special kind of daft) - says a lot about how confusing it now is. I can only assume nobody consulted officials on making this change. The law essentially contradicts itself re the playing of the ball, becoming active, where a player is initially and where an offence takes place, and requires too many stages to be applied. I'm normally the first to criticise officials, but the people who draft the laws really don't give them an easy time - especially with the annual offside changes.

You did a good job of explaining it, though! Not that the same explanation will apply next week, mind

[softboy]

so if an attacked stands in the oppposition goalmouth running backwards and forwards trying to put the goalkeeper off he is only actually offside when he touches the ball?

[morleyterrier]

I don't know what to say to that. How many key decisions can you get wrong in one match?.

[ben1987]

Refs done us over there.

[Porrohman]

How come when we scored he ran over to the players celebrating and pointed to his watch. When they scored he didn't bother, Hoggy said something and pointed to them and the ref just shrugged his shoulders

Sent from my SM-G900F using proboards

[impact]

Every time they hit the deck 30 yards from goal hr gave a free-kick. The Mooy one for the goal was absolutely ludicrous. Then to rub it in he completely ignores the one on Wells in the box.

Birmingham came to throw themselves on the floor and hoof balls into the box and the ref fell for it. Shame these things never work both ways.

[ACW]

The ref was poor throughout. The free kick for their goal came when Mooy clearly won the ball. And it looked a certain foul on Wells in their box. Anyone seen a replay? Looked a pen to me.

[impact]

Nov 5, 2016 18:28:51 GMT 1 ACW said:

The ref was poor throughout. The free kick for their goal came from Mooy clearly won the ball. And it looked a certain foul on Wells in their box. Anyone seen a replay? Looked a pen to me.

To me it was one of those where you've seen them given bit wasn't blatant. But they seemed to get given against us all game so it should have been a pen.

[ACW]

Nov 5, 2016 18:30:36 GMT 1 impact said:

Nov 5, 2016 18:28:51 GMT 1 ACW said:

The ref was poor throughout. The free kick for their goal came from Mooy clearly won the ball. And it looked a certain foul on Wells in their box. Anyone seen a replay? Looked a pen to me.

To me it was one of those where you've seen them given bit wasn't blatant. But they seemed to get given against us all game so it should have been a pen.

We never seem to get soft pens. And we seem to get clear ones denied all the time. The ref set a precedent with all the soft free kicks he was giving. Why be different when the challenge is in the box? Had that challenge been on a Brum player 30 yards from our goal it would have been given.

Feck me I feel cheated today.

[impact]

Nov 5, 2016 18:36:30 GMT 1 ACW said:

Nov 5, 2016 18:30:36 GMT 1 impact said:

To me it was one of those where you've seen them given bit wasn't blatant. But they seemed to get given against us all game so it should have been a pen.

We never seem to get soft pens. And we seem to get clear ones denied all the time. The ref set a precedent with all the soft free kicks he was giving. Why be different when the challenge is in the box? Had that challenge been on a Brum player 30 yards from our goal it would have been given.

Feck me I feel cheated today.

We don't get penalties. Was the last one we got at Elland Road last year?

I posted last year about how we never seem to get those close calls, or sometimes ever obvious calls, and nothing much has changed.

[ACW]

Nov 5, 2016 18:39:53 GMT 1 impact said:

Nov 5, 2016 18:36:30 GMT 1 ACW said:

We never seem to get soft pens. And we seem to get clear ones denied all the time. The ref set a precedent with all the soft free kicks he was giving. Why be different when the challenge is in the box? Had that challenge been on a Brum player 30 yards from our goal it would have been given.

Feck me I feel cheated today.

We don't get penalties. Was the last one we got at Elland Road last year?

I posted last year about how we never seem to get those close calls, or sometimes ever obvious calls, and nothing much has changed.

Totally agree. Seems we have to do things the hard way. Don't expect favours from officials but a fair cracking of the whip would be nice.

[space hardware]

Absolute wanker of a ref. It's ridiculous how few decisions we got today.

[impact]

Nov 5, 2016 18:28:51 GMT 1 ACW said:

The ref was poor throughout. The free kick for their goal came when Mooy clearly won the ball. And it looked a certain foul on Wells in their box. Anyone seen a replay? Looked a pen to me.

Having just seen the sky highlights, I take what I said back. Definite pen. Defender makes no attempt to play the ball and trips Wells.

Also, anyone notice how we were blown up for fouls at every corner but Brum weren't once, particularly the goal where someone (Schindler?) got shoved over as the ball came in.

[Stewpot]

I was in the cheap seats today in the FM Lower. Had a great view of the incident and it looked like a penalty to me, be interested to have another look on the FL Show, if they bother to show it.

[morleyterrier]

Nov 5, 2016 18:43:06 GMT 1 ACW said:

Nov 5, 2016 18:39:53 GMT 1 impact said:

We don't get penalties. Was the last one we got at Elland Road last year?

I posted last year about how we never seem to get those close calls, or sometimes ever obvious calls, and nothing much has changed.

Totally agree. Seems we have to do things the hard way. Don't expect favours from officials but a fair cracking of the whip would be nice.

This. This. This.

[Deleted]

Where do I start with today's referee? Firstly, I will say that I couldn't do their job. I don't have the skills. But then again, neither did this guy. He got so much wrong, for both sides, that he effectively ruined a good game of football. He clearly demonstrated throughout the match that he did not know a good tackle from a foul. Surely, that is a fundamental requirement.
I think that the pace of games gets the better of average refs and they then look totally out of their depths. Why are some games all about the officials?

[Doc Halladay 32]

The Wells penalty incident doesn't look much of one to me on the highlights, but it would definitely make a change for us to get a soft one once in a while.

When we do get penalty decisions it will be in games where the result is already decided and NOT in a crucial tight affair.

[Armchair Pundit]

Nov 5, 2016 19:45:26 GMT 1 Doc Halladay 32 said:

The Wells penalty incident doesn't look much of one to me on the highlights, but it would definitely make a change for us to get a soft one once in a while.

When we do get penalty decisions it will be in games where the result is already decided and NOT in a crucial tight affair.

The annoying this is. This awful ref was giving much less obvious fouls throughout the whole game.

The "foul" on Jack Payne wasn't a freekick as he lost the ball and fell over. He blew up and gave it.

Their defender mistimes the tackle and catches nakhi and there is no foul?
Ok so nakhi makes a meal of it. Shouldn't matter. There is still clear contact.


Then later on.... Schindler is penalised for pushing on an attacking set piece. 2 minutes later clear push on Heffele on an attacking set piece. Nothing. As he would have to give a penalty.

Another clear grab at Nakhi later on, where the defender was bear hugging him back. Nothing.

And a clear handball when their defender stopped jack paynes cross near the end. No handball from the ref because as you guessed he would have to given a penalty.

The ref bottled at least 4 penalty decisions in today's game.

[Doc Halladay 32]

Nov 5, 2016 19:58:09 GMT 1 Armchair Pundit said:

Nov 5, 2016 19:45:26 GMT 1 Doc Halladay 32 said:

The Wells penalty incident doesn't look much of one to me on the highlights, but it would definitely make a change for us to get a soft one once in a while.

When we do get penalty decisions it will be in games where the result is already decided and NOT in a crucial tight affair.

The annoying this is. This awful ref was giving much less obvious fouls throughout the whole game.

The "foul" on Jack Payne wasn't a freekick as he lost the ball and fell over. He blew up and gave it.

Their defender mistimes the tackle and catches nakhi and there is no foul?
Ok so nakhi makes a meal of it. Shouldn't matter. There is still clear contact.


Then later on.... Schindler is penalised for pushing on an attacking set piece. 2 minutes later clear push on Heffele on an attacking set piece. Nothing. As he would have to give a penalty.

Another clear grab at Nakhi later on, where the defender was bear hugging him back. Nothing.

And a clear handball when their defender stopped jack paynes cross near the end. No handball from the ref because as you guessed he would have to given a penalty.

The ref bottled at least 4 penalty decisions in today's game.

Just calling it as I saw it! If the same incident had have occurred in our area, I would have said it was a good decision by the ref not to give the penalty. I agree though I cannot speak in context of other fouls given.

[Deleted]

What I struggle to understand is in a game like today, which felt a bit like 'Land of the Giants' vs Town, how is it possible to knock very large men over so easily and have a free kick given against you every time it happens? Most of the fouls we conceded looked to me like physical challenges, and it is a contact sport, but fair ones. I know being a referee is a hard job but you got to the stage where when you saw a tackle you knew the ref would give a free kick, even if in looked innocuous. Birmingham looked a lot better when Fabbrini came on but up to then they were just lump and hope, a poor side filled with big blokes.

[aksaiblue]

It was a penalty all day long the defender took wells out, mooy won the ball and was penalised for it resulting in their goal. I have said it before but the old cliche "the decisions even theirselves out over a season" is a myth created by the bigger clubs, who refereees seem to defer to.

Shocking display by the referee today, he gave Birmingham a point and releived us of two points.

[impact]

Nov 5, 2016 19:45:26 GMT 1 Doc Halladay 32 said:

The Wells penalty incident doesn't look much of one to me on the highlights, but it would definitely make a change for us to get a soft one once in a while.

When we do get penalty decisions it will be in games where the result is already decided and NOT in a crucial tight affair.

Watch it again slowed down if you can, he sticks his leg out as he goes past Wells and trips him.

[Deleted]

Derby got a penalty for less at Wolves. It looks like a pen to me, deliberate or otherwise. I've seen them given for less, as they say.

[Doc Halladay 32]

Nov 5, 2016 21:16:29 GMT 1 impact said:

Nov 5, 2016 19:45:26 GMT 1 Doc Halladay 32 said:

The Wells penalty incident doesn't look much of one to me on the highlights, but it would definitely make a change for us to get a soft one once in a while.

When we do get penalty decisions it will be in games where the result is already decided and NOT in a crucial tight affair.

Watch it again slowed down if you can, he sticks his leg out as he goes past Wells and trips him.

I have watched it several times and as I say I don't think it was a pen, I've seen them given for less, but for me, Wells with his back to goal was looking for contact to go down. I'm sorry if it differs from your view but that's how I see it.

[stevvy]

The referees at this level are now supposedly supposed to be full time professionals. If that's the case, then can we just have a 6 year old in charge of our next game? Can't possibly do any worse than the oafs we have currently. The tackle Mooy made that led to the free kick for their equaliser was a brilliant tackle, and he let much worse ones go. He hadn't got a clue and that was clear throughout. He was an absolute disgrace for both sides, more so for us, and he shouldn't be allowed to ref another game at any level (even a Mozambique under 5 game) for another year at least, until he learns how to be something other than a blindingly obviously incompetent worthless piece of crap (and that's being kind).

Unfortunately, it's the same every game. Even when we win, the ref is generally shit. Of course, the assessor will probably give him a lovely high rating and they'll go about their business like nothing happened, ruining a game for someone different next week instead. Sick of the sheer incompetence of officials at this level, absolutely sick of it, more so because they're all as shit as each other, it's not even like some are reasonably ok whilst getting the odd decision wrong, they generally all seem incompetent at their job.

[Deleted]

Nov 5, 2016 21:24:50 GMT 1 stevvy said:

The referees at this level are now supposedly supposed to be full time professionals. If that's the case, then can we just have a 6 year old in charge of our next game? Can't possibly do any worse than the oafs we have currently. The tackle Mooy made that led to the free kick for their equaliser was a brilliant tackle, and he let much worse ones go. He hadn't got a clue and that was clear throughout. He was an absolute disgrace for both sides, more so for us, and he shouldn't be allowed to ref another game at any level (even a Mozambique under 5 game) for another year at least, until he learns how to be something other than a blindingly obviously incompetent worthless piece of crap (and that's being kind).

Unfortunately, it's the same every game. Even when we win, the ref is generally shit. Of course, the assessor will probably give him a lovely high rating and they'll go about their business like nothing happened, ruining a game for someone different next week instead. Sick of the sheer incompetence of officials at this level, absolutely sick of it, more so because they're all as shit as each other, it's not even like some are reasonably ok whilst getting the odd decision wrong, they generally all seem incompetent at their job.

The biggest issue with today's ref was that he did not understand tackling. His decision-making was a lottery, sometimes he blew, others he let go. I would hazard a guess that he has never played a game of football in his life; he simply did not understand the game. 

[morleyterrier]

I am still seething.

Mooy's fair tackle for their free-kick (goal)

The Nahki one (to be fair, on reflection not the biggest shout of the afternoon penalty wise). They get given though

The first hand-ball, their Player's arm is out from his side at right angles to his body (it looked like he was directing traffic) and a ball in the box hits his hand. Blatant, stonewall.

The second (I may have got the first and this one the wrong way round). The one the same as Sheffield Wednesday were given here. Very, very similar. Ball blasted in to the box and hits the Players hand (or possibly both hands). Infact this one was worse than the Wednseday one as the Brum Player was further away from the shot. Not given.

The ball in from the wing / edge of the box at the Media end, another handball (by this time you are thinking that surely with all of his blatant ignorance around previous decisions, he is giving this one, surely). Oh no, not this cheating bastard.

Seriously, it's not a myth that we get shit refs, we absolutely do. We get nothing.

There was a certain irony yesterday as we had a discussion beforehand in the pub, the topic?; "will Town ever get a penalty?".

Well based on yesterday, the answer is a resounding 'no', because if you can't get one of the above, you never will.