Yuta be a terrier
Andy Booth Terrier
That Gary Taylor fletcher will never make a footballer.....
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Post by Yuta be a terrier on May 1, 2019 11:05:07 GMT 1
Palace average attendances are pretty much the same as ours, so they either charge a lot more for tickets, have bigger funding from the owner/sponsorships or they are deeply in debt. Even if we doubled our sc prices we'd only generate £4.5m more which seems chicken feed in context of these numbers. OK they finished a bit higher up the PL table (11th to our 16th) which is worth £2m extra per place (£10m for them) but even so... Not sure how many more times it needs saying on here. As it stands there are 3 teams in the Premier League without billionaire (give or take in Cardiff's case) backing - us, Burnley and Watford. Of those 3 Watford have Udinese and Grenada propping them up with scouting networks and the pick of the best players. The only comparable to us in terms of funding is Burnley, and they've done a great job but in a very different (hoofball) style which I'd argue is much easier to implement on a smaller budget. They also benefit from the stability provided by Dyche being typecast, if he had achieved what he has at Burnley but was foreign and played more stylish football he'd be long gone and the next guy has his work cut out to sustain anything like it. We're a miles bigger club than Bournemouth and despite what the southern biased media would have you believe we're 100% in the same group as Fulham, Cardiff, Brighton, Burnley, Palace and Watford. Wolves, Southampton and Leicester aren't a million miles ahead - all have very recent spells in the third tier behind them. There's no way we are as big as Cardiff, Wolves and Southampton. As for Leicester they are miles ahead. If you look at scope all the clubs above have the opportunity to reach much bigger crowds than we do and as a result can have bigger stadiums and incomes. Geographically Fulham and Palace will have a bigger pull to players than we do. They all have rich foreign ownership and have all spent considerably more than town in the last 20 years. Burnley are arguably ahead but are the model we should follow. Let's not forget that they went straight back down after their promotion, we didn't. You can't call town a big club at all hence the reason we have been so out of our depth for the last 18 months both on and off the field. There's only the fans that are premier League about this club at the minute. |
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Melc
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by Melc on May 1, 2019 11:10:17 GMT 1
Palace only throwing around almost twice as much as us in wages last season. The closest team to us have a wage bill 25% bigger. In terms of Crystal Palace’s spending over the last 3 years on an already established squad. Paid Received Net Spend Season 18/19 £9,360,000 £0 £9,360,000 Season 17/18 £36,650,000 £5,300,000 £31,350,000 Season 16/17 £84,500,000 £43,000,000 £41,500,000 The wages graph above is sufficient to show why we never sign better players. Just shows though with the right signings a team like Watford manage a decent position with just over a extra £20m outlay, compared to ours. |
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Post by brighousebandbred on May 1, 2019 11:11:50 GMT 1
Not sure how many more times it needs saying on here. As it stands there are 3 teams in the Premier League without billionaire (give or take in Cardiff's case) backing - us, Burnley and Watford. Of those 3 Watford have Udinese and Grenada propping them up with scouting networks and the pick of the best players. The only comparable to us in terms of funding is Burnley, and they've done a great job but in a very different (hoofball) style which I'd argue is much easier to implement on a smaller budget. They also benefit from the stability provided by Dyche being typecast, if he had achieved what he has at Burnley but was foreign and played more stylish football he'd be long gone and the next guy has his work cut out to sustain anything like it. We're a miles bigger club than Bournemouth and despite what the southern biased media would have you believe we're 100% in the same group as Fulham, Cardiff, Brighton, Burnley, Palace and Watford. Wolves, Southampton and Leicester aren't a million miles ahead - all have very recent spells in the third tier behind them. There's no way we are as big as Cardiff, Wolves and Southampton. As for Leicester they are miles ahead. If you look at scope all the clubs above have the opportunity to reach much bigger crowds than we do and as a result can have bigger stadiums and incomes. Geographically Fulham and Palace will have a bigger pull to players than we do. They all have rich foreign ownership and have all spent considerably more than town in the last 20 years. Burnley are arguably ahead but are the model we should follow. Let's not forget that they went straight back down after their promotion, we didn't. You can't call town a big club at all hence the reason we have been so out of our depth for the last 18 months both on and off the field. There's only the fans that are premier League about this club at the minute. Cardiff bigger than us your having a laugh, your showing your age with a comment like that. I remember them in the same division getting 2 and 3 thousand crowds , we were at our lowest eb but still doubled their crowds on an even footing. |
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Yuta be a terrier
Andy Booth Terrier
That Gary Taylor fletcher will never make a footballer.....
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Post by Yuta be a terrier on May 1, 2019 11:25:22 GMT 1
There's no way we are as big as Cardiff, Wolves and Southampton. As for Leicester they are miles ahead. If you look at scope all the clubs above have the opportunity to reach much bigger crowds than we do and as a result can have bigger stadiums and incomes. Geographically Fulham and Palace will have a bigger pull to players than we do. They all have rich foreign ownership and have all spent considerably more than town in the last 20 years. Burnley are arguably ahead but are the model we should follow. Let's not forget that they went straight back down after their promotion, we didn't. You can't call town a big club at all hence the reason we have been so out of our depth for the last 18 months both on and off the field. There's only the fans that are premier League about this club at the minute. Cardiff bigger than us your having a laugh, your showing your age with a comment like that. I remember them in the same division getting 2 and 3 thousand crowds , we were at our lowest eb but still doubled their crowds on an even footing. I remember those days but they now have a 33000 seater stadium which they own and a billionaire owner. We may have been bigger 20 years ago but as a business proposition or an attraction we aren't bigger now. |
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Post by brighousebandbred on May 1, 2019 11:45:43 GMT 1
Cardiff bigger than us your having a laugh, your showing your age with a comment like that. I remember them in the same division getting 2 and 3 thousand crowds , we were at our lowest eb but still doubled their crowds on an even footing. I remember those days but they now have a 33000 seater stadium which they own and a billionaire owner. We may have been bigger 20 years ago but as a business proposition or an attraction we aren't bigger now. I’ve heard some strange reasons why clubs are bigger. But quoting the owner because he’s rich ( so if Brighouse town gets a billionaire owner do they jump above us too) . Stadium capacity’s change over the years we used to be 67000. Your arguments are flawed. |
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Post by brighousebandbred on May 1, 2019 11:48:04 GMT 1
I remember those days but they now have a 33000 seater stadium which they own and a billionaire owner. We may have been bigger 20 years ago but as a business proposition or an attraction we aren't bigger now. I’ve heard some strange reasons why clubs are bigger. But quoting the owner because he’s rich ( so if Brighouse town gets a billionaire owner do they jump above us too) . Stadium capacity’s change over the years we used to be 67000. Your arguments are flawed. Maybe it’s who’s the richest not biggest you should be debating |
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Yuta be a terrier
Andy Booth Terrier
That Gary Taylor fletcher will never make a footballer.....
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Post by Yuta be a terrier on May 1, 2019 11:56:43 GMT 1
I’ve heard some strange reasons why clubs are bigger. But quoting the owner because he’s rich ( so if Brighouse town gets a billionaire owner do they jump above us too) . Stadium capacity’s change over the years we used to be 67000. Your arguments are flawed. Maybe it’s who’s the richest not biggest you should be debating It's more than that though isn't it. It's the scope to grow as I said originally. Town don't have much scope to grow like Cardiff do. Plus we are debating the sporting director, future signings and appeal so surely the money can't be overlooked. Historically town are bigger, no doubt. But in the context of the current business climate I don't think we are. |
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Post by Mastercracker on May 1, 2019 11:59:37 GMT 1
Not sure how many more times it needs saying on here. As it stands there are 3 teams in the Premier League without billionaire (give or take in Cardiff's case) backing - us, Burnley and Watford. Of those 3 Watford have Udinese and Grenada propping them up with scouting networks and the pick of the best players. The only comparable to us in terms of funding is Burnley, and they've done a great job but in a very different (hoofball) style which I'd argue is much easier to implement on a smaller budget. They also benefit from the stability provided by Dyche being typecast, if he had achieved what he has at Burnley but was foreign and played more stylish football he'd be long gone and the next guy has his work cut out to sustain anything like it. We're a miles bigger club than Bournemouth and despite what the southern biased media would have you believe we're 100% in the same group as Fulham, Cardiff, Brighton, Burnley, Palace and Watford. Wolves, Southampton and Leicester aren't a million miles ahead - all have very recent spells in the third tier behind them. There's no way we are as big as Cardiff, Wolves and Southampton. As for Leicester they are miles ahead. If you look at scope all the clubs above have the opportunity to reach much bigger crowds than we do and as a result can have bigger stadiums and incomes. Geographically Fulham and Palace will have a bigger pull to players than we do. They all have rich foreign ownership and have all spent considerably more than town in the last 20 years. Burnley are arguably ahead but are the model we should follow. Let's not forget that they went straight back down after their promotion, we didn't. You can't call town a big club at all hence the reason we have been so out of our depth for the last 18 months both on and off the field. There's only the fans that are premier League about this club at the minute. I didnt say we were as big as Wolves, Southampton or Leicester. I said they arent a million miles ahead. They are predominantly locally followed clubs who don't have a massive amount of fans over and above what we do and also don't have the British based plastics or foreign hangers on. Owner dependent all 3 clubs can be established premier league sides, they can be mid table champ sides, or they can be in League 1 when times are hard. Southampton get 6984 more through the door than us this season, last year slightly less. If we had any of their grounds we'd have stuck a few 27/28k gates in last season for sure and the difference would be even less. None of them are big clubs but im not getting into that. Lets not be blinded by a once in 100 years miracle league title in just their second season back in the top flight. No idea how we arent as big as Cardiff. Again, circa 6k average more through the door than us currently, which having seen them on TV plenty and been at their game v us is (like Brighton) complete pretendance. The real figures would be much closer. Averaged less in coming 2nd last season than we did in 16/17. Never won owt, history of bouncing up and down the leagues, similar spread of time at each level to us. Just 20 years since they were getting 3500 in the 4th tier. But this wasn't really my point. They all have much greater financial backing, not cos they are bigger clubs, but because they have wealthier owners. That is a much greater reason for us being out of depth. I never called us a big club? There's only about 10 of them in England - Man U, Man C, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton, Aston Villa, Spurs, West Ham and Newcastle. Outside of these the margins are fine and most are much of a muchness despite the bluster from the likes of Leeds, Forest, Wednesday etc. Agree on london clubs having a greater pull. That is a big factor when trying to sign foreign players. I read something from Van Dijk a few weeks back saying that he spent most of his downtime in London. |
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Post by brighousebandbred on May 1, 2019 12:02:12 GMT 1
Maybe it’s who’s the richest not biggest you should be debating It's more than that though isn't it. It's the scope to grow as I said originally. Town don't have much scope to grow like Cardiff do. Plus we are debating the sporting director, future signings and appeal so surely the money can't be overlooked. Historically town are bigger, no doubt. But in the context of the current business climate I don't think we are. business climate - as I was saying richer not bigger. Money rules in the world of football because success breads larger crowds. But put the two clubs on an even footing and that’s when you realise which is the BIGGER club which is the original point. |
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Post by royrace on May 1, 2019 12:05:31 GMT 1
Think we will struggle to attract players whilst JS is in charge - we might be able to attract by chucking cash but are unlikely to do so and if players have a choice of two or three offering similar terms they are likely to go elsewhere given the lack of morale and lack of man management ( a simple phone call to pretty much any current player would put them off). We will therefore be left with attracting youngsters and obscure unproven foreigners. How do you know this is the case? We're a team at rock bottom, hardly surprising that it will be affecting the backroom, but not sure how it seems to be common theory that he's not great at man mgmt. He might not be of course, but it all seems to be the usual rumour mill, ignoring the low morale aspect. Mind you, if they phoned a few folk on here they'd run a mile... There does seem to be a general feeling that the players don't like or respect Siewert and even without anything concrete to go on I suspect it is the case. Just the general manner of players around him, body language, morale, lack of any team spirit, poor individual performance, failure to take on board any of his coaching, quotes, rumours of fallings out, team selections, the crap he comes out with after the match, seemingly fragile ego, tantrums on the touchline, the captaincy debacle, players being vague aboiut their futures. Lots of subtle and vague clues, some will want proof, there obviously isnt any but I see a lot of smoke in various areas which leads me to conclude the players aren't impressed and its a good point about being able to attract other new ones. The manager is obviously a big pull. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 12:09:39 GMT 1
I remember those days but they now have a 33000 seater stadium which they own and a billionaire owner. We may have been bigger 20 years ago but as a business proposition or an attraction we aren't bigger now. I’ve heard some strange reasons why clubs are bigger. But quoting the owner because he’s rich ( so if Brighouse town gets a billionaire owner do they jump above us too) . Stadium capacity’s change over the years we used to be 67000. Your arguments are flawed. I'd have thought a capital city club with it's recent history / current status would actually be deemed a bigger club than Town. Only in terms of history, trophies won, could we be deemed bigger.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on May 1, 2019 12:15:26 GMT 1
Maybe it’s who’s the richest not biggest you should be debating It's more than that though isn't it. It's the scope to grow as I said originally. Town don't have much scope to grow like Cardiff do. Plus we are debating the sporting director, future signings and appeal so surely the money can't be overlooked. Historically town are bigger, no doubt. But in the context of the current business climate I don't think we are. Why don't we have scope to grow? I get the stadium thing, but that will always be a constraint for 99% of clubs. I also get the footfall thing, but again, it's sort of irrelevant if you look at B'mouth. They've had a few seasons in the PL now, their new ground is on hold, their fanbase may still never fill a 25k seater stadium even if it's built? So you're basing your argument purely on wealth & demographics by the looks? Cardiff - capital city, nearest rivals Swansea, beyond that, no competition for either of those clubs, but it was still well within living memory that Newport were doing OK. Not to Swansea or Cardiff levels, but still classed as the third team in S Wales. We compete in a hotbed of football, when you consider clubs within a 35 mile radius of us - we've still sold a ton of ST's despite almost being assured of relegation when they went on sale. Really struggling with why we haven't the scope to grow? Do you think we should just climb back in a box and saunter back down to L1? |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 12:20:35 GMT 1
The wages graph above is sufficient to show why we never sign better players. Just shows though with the right signings a team like Watford manage a decent position with just over a extra £20m outlay, compared to ours. “Just” an extra £20m is more or less £400k a week...or effectively six to eight players all earning more than our best players are. If we added eight players of that level to our squad, we’d likely be an EPL team next season. |
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crux
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by crux on May 1, 2019 12:22:42 GMT 1
How do you know this is the case? We're a team at rock bottom, hardly surprising that it will be affecting the backroom, but not sure how it seems to be common theory that he's not great at man mgmt. He might not be of course, but it all seems to be the usual rumour mill, ignoring the low morale aspect. Mind you, if they phoned a few folk on here they'd run a mile... There does seem to be a general feeling that the players don't like or respect Siewert and even without anything concrete to go on I suspect it is the case. Just the general manner of players around him, body language, morale, lack of any team spirit, poor individual performance, failure to take on board any of his coaching, quotes, rumours of fallings out, team selections, the crap he comes out with after the match, seemingly fragile ego, tantrums on the touchline, the captaincy debacle, players being vague aboiut their futures. Lots of subtle and vague clues, some will want proof, there obviously isnt any but I see a lot of smoke in various areas which leads me to conclude the players aren't impressed and its a good point about being able to attract other new ones. The manager is obviously a big pull. You could have written almost the same at the end of December about Wagner and the team. The only difference is that now we're actually relegated a number of players are going to leave through their choice or the clubs. The captaincy could have been handled better to the outside world, but neither Smith or Hogg are giving the impression of being that put out about it. Schindler does appear to be a Mark Hudson type leader, who commands respect. My only real worry is the lack of on field communication between defenders and midfield. Somebody needs to be an on field organiser. I know JS is seen by a number of town fans as a German 4th division manager, but he is a respected coach in Germany who worked for their FA and Dortmond AFTER working in the 4th division. He is young, but does have a wider coaching experience than Wagner did. Whether he can develop the man management skills needed is another question. |
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Post by brighousebandbred on May 1, 2019 12:27:53 GMT 1
I’ve heard some strange reasons why clubs are bigger. But quoting the owner because he’s rich ( so if Brighouse town gets a billionaire owner do they jump above us too) . Stadium capacity’s change over the years we used to be 67000. Your arguments are flawed. I'd have thought a capital city club with it's recent history / current status would actually be deemed a bigger club than Town. Only in terms of history, trophies won, could we be deemed bigger.
What recent history before making it to prem 5 ish years ago they hadn’t been in top division for 52 years . Current status ? There in the same position as us . Capital city ? Oh well done on your geography knowledge |
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Post by detox on May 1, 2019 12:39:21 GMT 1
Palace average attendances are pretty much the same as ours, so they either charge a lot more for tickets, have bigger funding from the owner/sponsorships or they are deeply in debt. Even if we doubled our sc prices we'd only generate £4.5m more which seems chicken feed in context of these numbers. OK they finished a bit higher up the PL table (11th to our 16th) which is worth £2m extra per place (£10m for them) but even so... Not sure how many more times it needs saying on here. As it stands there are 3 teams in the Premier League without billionaire (give or take in Cardiff's case) backing - us, Burnley and Watford. Of those 3 Watford have Udinese and Grenada propping them up with scouting networks and the pick of the best players. The only comparable to us in terms of funding is Burnley, and they've done a great job but in a very different (hoofball) style which I'd argue is much easier to implement on a smaller budget. They also benefit from the stability provided by Dyche being typecast, if he had achieved what he has at Burnley but was foreign and played more stylish football he'd be long gone and the next guy has his work cut out to sustain anything like it. We're a miles bigger club than Bournemouth and despite what the southern biased media would have you believe we're 100% in the same group as Fulham, Cardiff, Brighton, Burnley, Palace and Watford. Wolves, Southampton and Leicester aren't a million miles ahead - all have very recent spells in the third tier behind them. But size means nothing if they have much greater spending power than you. All of them have backing on a totally different scale to us, as that wage bill table shows, it's not even close. Even Burnley's wage bill was 25% higher. To put that into context that's an extra £298,000 a week to spend on players - imagine the difference 3 players on 99k a week could have made to us. That gives you access to Shaqiri/Deulofeu/Wilson level players, and then punts like Diakhaby/Mounie and championship players like VLP are on the bench rather than the first team. Everyone gets giddy at receiving circa £105m a year from the Premier League but forgets that to give yourself a fighting chance the wage bill will then eat the vast majority of that. With decent players costing £20m+ these days that doesn't leave much left for transfers, without money no object owners piling in... We've undoubtedly made mistakes and looking at the wage bills Wagner was in a knife fight with a toothpick, but the other problem is that we were away for so long that the infrastructure (ground, training, scouting network, marketing, general staffing levels etc) was also massively behind the required standard. It's not like we were ever planning for the Premier League whilst in the championship like Brighton were. That's taken a fair chunk of the money that had we not being away for 45 years probably could have been spent on wages/signings. What hopefully happens now is that we up our game to become the sort of club that can challenge to be in the premier league on a fairly regular basis (WBA, Norwich etc), rather than one that appears once in a generation due to some miracle working. That said, without the backing discussed we will always be massively up against it once (if) we do get back. Going back to the director of football, this has been a massive fuck up ever since Webber left. I can only hope the delay this time is down to the potential takeover, but given we've operated without one for over 50% of the time since he left, it seems more like a massive blind spot to me. As much as Dean Hoyle has been amazing for this club, the thought of him and Winter "pitching in" doesn't fill me with much confidence. It's not their skillset, and given our budget limitations we need to be bang on it and getting far more right than wrong in order to succeed. That was the point I was (trying) to make....there simply isn't enough money generated through the club or via Sky TV to give a club a reasonable chance of competing in the PL (odd exceptions of course)...so the 'missing link' is a 'billionaire' owner...DH isn't in the category, he owns half the proceeds of the sale of Card factory (approx £125m)...he once said his wife's half was not part of the equation when he bought into Town..£125m is dream money for the likes of you and me, but measly in terms of PL football. You know all this anyway, but the sporting director we appoint has had to work within the limited parameters and scrat around for bargain basement (in context) players which inevitably carries more risk. £10m for a striker in the Mounie mold being an example.. I accept the syle DW wanted to player demanded more cultered players , which we couldn't afford, whereas Burnley under Dych plays according to the available funds he has. maybe DW was an idealist and Dych a realist... |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on May 1, 2019 12:45:39 GMT 1
That's a big problem for any perspective manager isn't it? We seem unwilling to spend money on quality players. The club is the richest it's ever been why won't we buy quality players? Personally I think Wagner wanted some money and that's why he left because judging by the January window business ie Puncheon and the lack of anything else other than the signing of Grant which I'm not criticising by the way but we didn't seem to want to give him any. We then appoint a German 4th division manager who had managed Dortmund's stiffs, of course the guy is going to jump at the chance. I'd love to see this guy's wish list for players for next season, cos I'm worried about who he wants to bring in. We didn’t spend in January because we were bottom of the league and Dean had repeatedly said since promotion that in order to aid securing the future of the club we’d only spend large from a position of strength. Wagner was well aware of that policy, as were we all although we may choose to erase it from memory. What is this position of strength you talk of? If we aren't in a position of strength by being in the PL and being the richest the club has ever been when will we be in a position of strength? It's a load of bollocks is that. The club continually contradict itself. It's like when they made the statement about 'not sleepwalking in to relegation' but we made no effort to strengthen the squad at all in January, the 'we were gonners' is a cop out. And I want to know if we're not at a position of strength how do we now get back to a position of strength without spending money? It's a cop out mate. All I can hear on here is people giving reasons for how we can't compete. |
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Yuta be a terrier
Andy Booth Terrier
That Gary Taylor fletcher will never make a footballer.....
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Post by Yuta be a terrier on May 1, 2019 12:52:03 GMT 1
It's more than that though isn't it. It's the scope to grow as I said originally. Town don't have much scope to grow like Cardiff do. Plus we are debating the sporting director, future signings and appeal so surely the money can't be overlooked. Historically town are bigger, no doubt. But in the context of the current business climate I don't think we are. Why don't we have scope to grow? I get the stadium thing, but that will always be a constraint for 99% of clubs. I also get the footfall thing, but again, it's sort of irrelevant if you look at B'mouth. They've had a few seasons in the PL now, their new ground is on hold, their fanbase may still never fill a 25k seater stadium even if it's built? So you're basing your argument purely on wealth & demographics by the looks? Cardiff - capital city, nearest rivals Swansea, beyond that, no competition for either of those clubs, but it was still well within living memory that Newport were doing OK. Not to Swansea or Cardiff levels, but still classed as the third team in S Wales. We compete in a hotbed of football, when you consider clubs within a 35 mile radius of us - we've still sold a ton of ST's despite almost being assured of relegation when they went on sale. Really struggling with why we haven't the scope to grow? Do you think we should just climb back in a box and saunter back down to L1? You have pretty much argued the case for me. I said we don't have as much scope to grow as Cardiff. We have just been a bottom end premier League team. How do we grow from there? Currently we don't own the ground and even if we did could we fill 35k every week to increase income? Maybe but doubtful. Do we pay big wages? No. Do we have a huge geographical pull for players? No. Are we surrounded by umpteen other football clubs including 3 major sporting city's in Leeds, Manchester and Sheffield? Yes. It's going to be really difficult to make this club a mid table premier League team which would be the next stage. Of course these things could change with a billionaire Oligarch but going back to my original point about money, are we likely to attract one of those? It has to come down to economics. There isn't a billionaire sat there thinking I'll buy Huddersfield because they won the first division 100 years ago. |
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Post by Mastercracker on May 1, 2019 12:53:17 GMT 1
Not sure how many more times it needs saying on here. As it stands there are 3 teams in the Premier League without billionaire (give or take in Cardiff's case) backing - us, Burnley and Watford. Of those 3 Watford have Udinese and Grenada propping them up with scouting networks and the pick of the best players. The only comparable to us in terms of funding is Burnley, and they've done a great job but in a very different (hoofball) style which I'd argue is much easier to implement on a smaller budget. They also benefit from the stability provided by Dyche being typecast, if he had achieved what he has at Burnley but was foreign and played more stylish football he'd be long gone and the next guy has his work cut out to sustain anything like it. We're a miles bigger club than Bournemouth and despite what the southern biased media would have you believe we're 100% in the same group as Fulham, Cardiff, Brighton, Burnley, Palace and Watford. Wolves, Southampton and Leicester aren't a million miles ahead - all have very recent spells in the third tier behind them. But size means nothing if they have much greater spending power than you. All of them have backing on a totally different scale to us, as that wage bill table shows, it's not even close. Even Burnley's wage bill was 25% higher. To put that into context that's an extra £298,000 a week to spend on players - imagine the difference 3 players on 99k a week could have made to us. That gives you access to Shaqiri/Deulofeu/Wilson level players, and then punts like Diakhaby/Mounie and championship players like VLP are on the bench rather than the first team. Everyone gets giddy at receiving circa £105m a year from the Premier League but forgets that to give yourself a fighting chance the wage bill will then eat the vast majority of that. With decent players costing £20m+ these days that doesn't leave much left for transfers, without money no object owners piling in... We've undoubtedly made mistakes and looking at the wage bills Wagner was in a knife fight with a toothpick, but the other problem is that we were away for so long that the infrastructure (ground, training, scouting network, marketing, general staffing levels etc) was also massively behind the required standard. It's not like we were ever planning for the Premier League whilst in the championship like Brighton were. That's taken a fair chunk of the money that had we not being away for 45 years probably could have been spent on wages/signings. What hopefully happens now is that we up our game to become the sort of club that can challenge to be in the premier league on a fairly regular basis (WBA, Norwich etc), rather than one that appears once in a generation due to some miracle working. That said, without the backing discussed we will always be massively up against it once (if) we do get back. Going back to the director of football, this has been a massive fuck up ever since Webber left. I can only hope the delay this time is down to the potential takeover, but given we've operated without one for over 50% of the time since he left, it seems more like a massive blind spot to me. As much as Dean Hoyle has been amazing for this club, the thought of him and Winter "pitching in" doesn't fill me with much confidence. It's not their skillset, and given our budget limitations we need to be bang on it and getting far more right than wrong in order to succeed. That was the point I was (trying) to make....there simply isn't enough money generated through the club or via Sky TV to give a club a reasonable chance of competing in the PL (odd exceptions of course)...so the 'missing link' is a 'billionaire' owner...DH isn't in the category, he owns half the proceeds of the sale of Card factory (approx £125m)...he once said his wife's half was not part of the equation when he bought into Town..£125m is dream money for the likes of you and me, but measly in terms of PL football. You know all this anyway, but the sporting director we appoint has had to work within the limited parameters and scrat around for bargain basement (in context) players which inevitably carries more risk. £10m for a striker in the Mounie mold being an example.. I accept the syle DW wanted to player demanded more cultered players , which we couldn't afford, whereas Burnley under Dych plays according to the available funds he has. maybe DW was an idealist and Dych a realist... Indeed. Outside of the proper global clubs with 100s of millions worldwide buying shirts and tat none of the clubs really generate what they need to. It's a pretty grim state of affairs. |
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ldotm
David Wagner Terrier
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Post by ldotm on May 1, 2019 12:54:09 GMT 1
I don't think we are risk averse though. We've spent decent money on some lads, more than at any time in our history. We've just had an incredibly poor season that is creating the perception that some of those signings are worse than they actually are. As much as you can see the value in the Callum Wilson's of the world, there are probably just as many, if not more, expensive signings that have flopped at clubs. It's really difficult getting it right nowadays, partly because bigger clubs can afford to have much bigger feeder systems, so talent gets hoarded and clubs like Town have much less of a market place. I know football is much more global now, so the net can be cast further, but the bigger clubs also have a lot of those avenues tied up. If anything, the biggest blocker is that we're probably not prepared to break a wage structure, which I agree with. That semi level playing field should build a decent dressing room. The issue this season has been the second season syndrome which many warned of. The  of the  we rode into 2017/2018 turned into the of relief going into 2018/2019. I'm looking forward to next season, think it will refresh the club and the supporters... Fantastic post. So tired of hearing “why don’t we sign xyz” Because they’re on huge fucking wages and most likely huge agents fees to boot. Dean has always had a structure. He wouldn’t sign Ricky Lambert in league one as Saints came in with a big offer that we couldn’t match without killing the wage structure. He was always adamant about spending what you can afford. No town fan can complain about this considering what’s happened within the last 3 years. For me the real down fall has unfortunately been Dean’s ill health (therefore lack of leadership in the club) along with ONE poor summer transfer dealings. We’re also fighting in a league where Chelsea spent £70m on Mortata only to be deemed 18 months later not good enough and shipped elsewhere - with higuain coming in as replacement. Some fans need a reality check Because people on here and many football fans live in fantasy land, there are so many complexities in football. We see 90 mins of football a week, we don’t see what goes on behind close doors etc. It’s easy to say, chuck money at it - but it’s not just a transfer fee.. as you’ve alluded to - wages, agent fees and then that comes with potential issues of morale due to a pay structure being so varied. Then what happens if we still don’t get results? We are left with expensive players and we start to tumble down the leagues in a financial dire situation. Dean Hoyle is as big of a Huddersfield Town fan as anyone and a very very successful business owner - who else would you want running the club more than that? He knows all about finances, the risks, operations, management etc but also passion, desire to be as successful with his own boyhood club as anyone. It’s easy to sit on this and say, should’ve signed him, should’ve played him, should’ve made this decision etc. It’s so naive to think all these situations don’t get analysed and they try everything possible. Have we made mistakes? Of course we have, but it’s easy to then witness them mistakes as hindsight and go.. why didn’t we do this instead. It’s been a frustrating season and it’s been hard to be interested and enjoy it but just winds me up when people think football, business etc is so simple and that they could run the club in a breathe.. |
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Post by dugnet on May 1, 2019 13:05:07 GMT 1
We didn’t spend in January because we were bottom of the league and Dean had repeatedly said since promotion that in order to aid securing the future of the club we’d only spend large from a position of strength. Wagner was well aware of that policy, as were we all although we may choose to erase it from memory. What is this position of strength you talk of? If we aren't in a position of strength by being in the PL and being the richest the club has ever been when will we be in a position of strength? It's a load of bollocks is that. The club continually contradict itself. It's like when they made the statement about 'not sleepwalking in to relegation' but we made no effort to strengthen the squad at all in January, the 'we were gonners' is a cop out. And I want to know if we're not at a position of strength how do we now get back to a position of strength without spending money? It's a cop out mate. All I can hear on here is people giving reasons for how we can't compete. The reality is that the, financial, challenge we face is exactly the same as before we were in the Premier League. We are not able to sustain the wages of players of better quality. As a result we are forced to look for "potential" in players in the hope we can develop and sell them on. I really don't expect things to change unless we get a backer who is able to fund those wages. The comment about not "sleepwalking into relegation" was at worst misleading and at best overly optimistic. In many respects it was very "un" Dean Hoyle. That window for change has passed now and knowing what was meant at that time is only really interesting in relation to what will happen in the future. We don't know what our next steps will be. Jan seems very confident in both the security of his position and his ability. He doesn't strike me as someone who is about to lose his job. This means how we structure ourselves and how we hope to develop the team over the next 1-3 years is critical to the overall standing of the club. The Premier League has been positive in the sense that we have greater financial resources available to us (although if we don't return this is a finite position), we have experience of being at the top level, the clubs' status has been promoted (once again this is a transient benefit) and we have generated an interest on our fan base. All needs to be built on and used positively. The DOF/SD role is key to how the club will be run. I would agree with anyone who said that not having this role confirmed and the positive message about not "sleepwalking" into anything is contradictory. For me I can accept the club being run sensibly but I want to see the passion and determination that we had in our promotion season. Unless a major financial backer is to come in the prudent route is the one we should expect. But it must be prudent with a real belief that we can press forward. It would not be acceptable if there was an under current of "this is as good as we can be". That is not acceptable in any way. The sooner we know the direction of travel the better, we can then accurately assess what to expect. Just a note, with tongue in cheek, I wonder how many times DH has been asked "what's happening" this week on P4P? |
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Post by Mastercracker on May 1, 2019 13:09:04 GMT 1
Why don't we have scope to grow? I get the stadium thing, but that will always be a constraint for 99% of clubs. I also get the footfall thing, but again, it's sort of irrelevant if you look at B'mouth. They've had a few seasons in the PL now, their new ground is on hold, their fanbase may still never fill a 25k seater stadium even if it's built? So you're basing your argument purely on wealth & demographics by the looks? Cardiff - capital city, nearest rivals Swansea, beyond that, no competition for either of those clubs, but it was still well within living memory that Newport were doing OK. Not to Swansea or Cardiff levels, but still classed as the third team in S Wales. We compete in a hotbed of football, when you consider clubs within a 35 mile radius of us - we've still sold a ton of ST's despite almost being assured of relegation when they went on sale. Really struggling with why we haven't the scope to grow? Do you think we should just climb back in a box and saunter back down to L1? You have pretty much argued the case for me. I said we don't have as much scope to grow as Cardiff. We have just been a bottom end premier League team. How do we grow from there? Currently we don't own the ground and even if we did could we fill 35k every week to increase income? Maybe but doubtful. Do we pay big wages? No. Do we have a huge geographical pull for players? No. Are we surrounded by umpteen other football clubs including 3 major sporting city's in Leeds, Manchester and Sheffield? Yes. It's going to be really difficult to make this club a mid table premier League team which would be the next stage. Of course these things could change with a billionaire Oligarch but going back to my original point about money, are we likely to attract one of those? It has to come down to economics. There isn't a billionaire sat there thinking I'll buy Huddersfield because they won the first division 100 years ago. You are talking about potential though, thats something completely different. I'd fully agree that Cardiff have greater potential than we do, existing bigger ground, bigger catchment area, City etc. But currently they arent nor have they ever really been a bigger club if looking at facts rather than what ifs. By your logic Bradford are a bigger club than us - Bigger ground, bigger population, bigger catchment area (north), city status. But they just aren't are they, and never have been. |
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Post by dugnet on May 1, 2019 13:11:10 GMT 1
Fantastic post. So tired of hearing “why don’t we sign xyz” Because they’re on huge fucking wages and most likely huge agents fees to boot. Dean has always had a structure. He wouldn’t sign Ricky Lambert in league one as Saints came in with a big offer that we couldn’t match without killing the wage structure. He was always adamant about spending what you can afford. No town fan can complain about this considering what’s happened within the last 3 years. For me the real down fall has unfortunately been Dean’s ill health (therefore lack of leadership in the club) along with ONE poor summer transfer dealings. We’re also fighting in a league where Chelsea spent £70m on Mortata only to be deemed 18 months later not good enough and shipped elsewhere - with higuain coming in as replacement. Some fans need a reality check Because people on here and many football fans live in fantasy land, there are so many complexities in football. We see 90 mins of football a week, we don’t see what goes on behind close doors etc. It’s easy to say, chuck money at it - but it’s not just a transfer fee.. as you’ve alluded to - wages, agent fees and then that comes with potential issues of morale due to a pay structure being so varied. Then what happens if we still don’t get results? We are left with expensive players and we start to tumble down the leagues in a financial dire situation. Dean Hoyle is as big of a Huddersfield Town fan as anyone and a very very successful business owner - who else would you want running the club more than that? He knows all about finances, the risks, operations, management etc but also passion, desire to be as successful with his own boyhood club as anyone. It’s easy to sit on this and say, should’ve signed him, should’ve played him, should’ve made this decision etc. It’s so naive to think all these situations don’t get analysed and they try everything possible. Have we made mistakes? Of course we have, but it’s easy to then witness them mistakes as hindsight and go.. why didn’t we do this instead. It’s been a frustrating season and it’s been hard to be interested and enjoy it but just winds me up when people think football, business etc is so simple and that they could run the club in a breathe.. You are absolutely right in your observations but I would add: We seemed to lose our plan on arriving in the Premier League and although our momentum carried us through in the first season we didn't learn quickly enough. It feels as if we have lost sight of the approach we wanted to follow and it all became reactive as opposed to proactive. I accept we need to be smart/prudent but to do so you need to be incredibly focused with a team pulling in the same direction. I don't think we are as together as we were and need to res-establish that unity. |
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Post by royrace on May 1, 2019 13:22:02 GMT 1
There does seem to be a general feeling that the players don't like or respect Siewert and even without anything concrete to go on I suspect it is the case. Just the general manner of players around him, body language, morale, lack of any team spirit, poor individual performance, failure to take on board any of his coaching, quotes, rumours of fallings out, team selections, the crap he comes out with after the match, seemingly fragile ego, tantrums on the touchline, the captaincy debacle, players being vague aboiut their futures. Lots of subtle and vague clues, some will want proof, there obviously isnt any but I see a lot of smoke in various areas which leads me to conclude the players aren't impressed and its a good point about being able to attract other new ones. The manager is obviously a big pull. You could have written almost the same at the end of December about Wagner and the team. The only difference is that now we're actually relegated a number of players are going to leave through their choice or the clubs. The captaincy could have been handled better to the outside world, but neither Smith or Hogg are giving the impression of being that put out about it. Schindler does appear to be a Mark Hudson type leader, who commands respect. My only real worry is the lack of on field communication between defenders and midfield. Somebody needs to be an on field organiser. I know JS is seen by a number of town fans as a German 4th division manager, but he is a respected coach in Germany who worked for their FA and Dortmond AFTER working in the 4th division. He is young, but does have a wider coaching experience than Wagner did. Whether he can develop the man management skills needed is another question. Actually I couldn't have written ANY of that about Wagner and the team in December, not one thing!!! I think some people struggle massively to see the difference in performances and results. Yes results are similar but the performances and manner of the players couldn't be any different! |
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Post by Mastercracker on May 1, 2019 13:22:48 GMT 1
Because people on here and many football fans live in fantasy land, there are so many complexities in football. We see 90 mins of football a week, we don’t see what goes on behind close doors etc. It’s easy to say, chuck money at it - but it’s not just a transfer fee.. as you’ve alluded to - wages, agent fees and then that comes with potential issues of morale due to a pay structure being so varied. Then what happens if we still don’t get results? We are left with expensive players and we start to tumble down the leagues in a financial dire situation. Dean Hoyle is as big of a Huddersfield Town fan as anyone and a very very successful business owner - who else would you want running the club more than that? He knows all about finances, the risks, operations, management etc but also passion, desire to be as successful with his own boyhood club as anyone. It’s easy to sit on this and say, should’ve signed him, should’ve played him, should’ve made this decision etc. It’s so naive to think all these situations don’t get analysed and they try everything possible. Have we made mistakes? Of course we have, but it’s easy to then witness them mistakes as hindsight and go.. why didn’t we do this instead. It’s been a frustrating season and it’s been hard to be interested and enjoy it but just winds me up when people think football, business etc is so simple and that they could run the club in a breathe.. You are absolutely right in your observations but I would add: We seemed to lose our plan on arriving in the Premier League and although our momentum carried us through in the first season we didn't learn quickly enough. It feels as if we have lost sight of the approach we wanted to follow and it all became reactive as opposed to proactive. I accept we need to be smart/prudent but to do so you need to be incredibly focused with a team pulling in the same direction. I don't think we are as together as we were and need to res-establish that unity.Couldn't agree more with this. If ever a team were promoted on team spirit it was us. It was often discussed even before we realised we were in with a shout that pretty much everyone we'd signed was a leader and/or good character. The likes of Lynch/Vaughan were bombed out quickly. Since promotion though I think some of those values went out of the window with new signings, probably because we were desperate to get quality over character. Since last season we've had Lossl not signing a contract and getting dropped, Depoitre effectively having an entire season off, Zanka seemingly getting a bit big time after the world cup, Diakhaby sulking to the media, Mbenza slating his former manager and then VLP, who was probably kept in line prior seemingly starting cliques and/or sulking about not playing. The togertherness has never seemed there this season, even before we unravled in December. |
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Yuta be a terrier
Andy Booth Terrier
That Gary Taylor fletcher will never make a footballer.....
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Post by Yuta be a terrier on May 1, 2019 13:25:47 GMT 1
You have pretty much argued the case for me. I said we don't have as much scope to grow as Cardiff. We have just been a bottom end premier League team. How do we grow from there? Currently we don't own the ground and even if we did could we fill 35k every week to increase income? Maybe but doubtful. Do we pay big wages? No. Do we have a huge geographical pull for players? No. Are we surrounded by umpteen other football clubs including 3 major sporting city's in Leeds, Manchester and Sheffield? Yes. It's going to be really difficult to make this club a mid table premier League team which would be the next stage. Of course these things could change with a billionaire Oligarch but going back to my original point about money, are we likely to attract one of those? It has to come down to economics. There isn't a billionaire sat there thinking I'll buy Huddersfield because they won the first division 100 years ago. You are talking about potential though, thats something completely different. I'd fully agree that Cardiff have greater potential than we do, existing bigger ground, bigger catchment area, City etc. But currently they arent nor have they ever really been a bigger club if looking at facts rather than what ifs. By your logic Bradford are a bigger club than us - Bigger ground, bigger population, bigger catchment area (north), city status. But they just aren't are they, and never have been. Well no because they are in league 2 and are skint. They were probably bigger than us back in 2000 though and neither of us have won a major honour since. Cardiff technically are higher than us but likely will be a newly relegated championship team same as us next season hence the comparison. Sunderland have more honours than us and have all of the above so are they bigger? What about Leeds? Are we basing it purely on honours or the whole package? |
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Post by royrace on May 1, 2019 13:31:54 GMT 1
You are absolutely right in your observations but I would add: We seemed to lose our plan on arriving in the Premier League and although our momentum carried us through in the first season we didn't learn quickly enough. It feels as if we have lost sight of the approach we wanted to follow and it all became reactive as opposed to proactive. I accept we need to be smart/prudent but to do so you need to be incredibly focused with a team pulling in the same direction. I don't think we are as together as we were and need to res-establish that unity.Couldn't agree more with this. If ever a team were promoted on team spirit it was us. It was often discussed even before we realised we were in with a shout that pretty much everyone we'd signed was a leader and/or good character. The likes of Lynch/Vaughan were bombed out quickly. Since promotion though I think some of those values went out of the window with new signings, probably because we were desperate to get quality over character. Since last season we've had Lossl not signing a contract and getting dropped, Depoitre effectively having an entire season off, Zanka seemingly getting a bit big time after the world cup, Diakhaby sulking to the media, Mbenza slating his former manager and then VLP, who was probably kept in line prior seemingly starting cliques and/or sulking about not playing. The togertherness has never seemed there this season, even before we unravled in December. Definitely the case and it was concerning to me in the summer when we let the likes of Lolley, Hef and Ince leave, all really good characters, and replaced them with young expensive unproven players with virtually no track record. Ironically the quality is actually much worse that those we let leave but even ignoring quality it looked like the club was in danger of chucking away the team spirit that served it so well. There's been so many obvious mistakes this season, I'm staggered the club got it so wrong. I expected the Wagner blueprint and identity to set the club in good stead for years but it seems to have all unravelled within 6 months. Appointing a manager who doesn't seem to share any of his ethos isn't helping. I wasn't expecting a carbon copy but Jan is a million miles away from Wagner in just about every aspect except for he used to work at Dortmund. |
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Post by Mastercracker on May 1, 2019 13:42:23 GMT 1
You are talking about potential though, thats something completely different. I'd fully agree that Cardiff have greater potential than we do, existing bigger ground, bigger catchment area, City etc. But currently they arent nor have they ever really been a bigger club if looking at facts rather than what ifs. By your logic Bradford are a bigger club than us - Bigger ground, bigger population, bigger catchment area (north), city status. But they just aren't are they, and never have been. Well no because they are in league 2 and are skint. They were probably bigger than us back in 2000 though and neither of us have won a major honour since. Cardiff technically are higher than us but likely will be a newly relegated championship team same as us next season hence the comparison. Sunderland have more honours than us and have all of the above so are they bigger? What about Leeds? Are we basing it purely on honours or the whole package? Of course Sunderland and Leeds are bigger than us. All things equal they have more fans and have spent a grand total of 4 seasons outside the top two divisions between them - no unproven ifs or maybes. Cardiff dont and neither do anyone of the other clubs I originally mentioned as being in the same grouping as us. Put us in the premier league with a billionaire in charge and Leeds/Sunderland in there with Ken Davy in charge and they are still bigger clubs, despite the fact we would be highly likely to be better than them on the pitch. Same reason we are bigger than Bournemouth. Bored of this big club little club bollocks now anyway, it wasn't my original point. My point was they have more £ than us due to ownership. |
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Post by dugnet on May 1, 2019 13:45:53 GMT 1
The bottom line is we need to draw a line under the past 3 years and move forward. We are in a better position than we were so the challenge is to make the most of this.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 13:59:54 GMT 1
We didn’t spend in January because we were bottom of the league and Dean had repeatedly said since promotion that in order to aid securing the future of the club we’d only spend large from a position of strength. Wagner was well aware of that policy, as were we all although we may choose to erase it from memory. What is this position of strength you talk of? If we aren't in a position of strength by being in the PL and being the richest the club has ever been when will we be in a position of strength? It's a load of bollocks is that. The club continually contradict itself. It's like when they made the statement about 'not sleepwalking in to relegation' but we made no effort to strengthen the squad at all in January, the 'we were gonners' is a cop out. And I want to know if we're not at a position of strength how do we now get back to a position of strength without spending money? It's a cop out mate. All I can hear on here is people giving reasons for how we can't compete. It’s Deans strategy not mine! In simple terms, he said that if as an EPL team we were in the bottom 3 or 5 or whatever, then we wouldn’t attempt to buy our way out of trouble and end up saddled with extra players on premier league contracts and compromise the financial stability of a relegated team. But that if we were up reasonably clear of relegation, then we would likely see more signings made in a January window, as part of the ongoing strategy of improving a squad, with the benefit of being reasonably confident in having “next years” full EPL money coming in. From a personal point of view...we looked relegated by the end of December anyway...if we’d spent £10m to £20m on new full backs, £15m-£20m on a longer term Mooy replacement to cover for his injury or Asia Cup absence (or a loan player commanding a much higher fee than we spent on bringing in Puncheon to replace Mooy), £10m on whatever it is that would have meant not having to rely on Stankovic playing that role he’s ridiculously left with because Billing is injured or taking his balls home, £15m on someone who might not fit in to replace and improve upon at least one of Diakhaby & Mbenza, £5m on a keeper, just any keeper, and £200m on Harry Kane...we’d STILL be relegated, and we’d be heading for admin within 18months (even replacing Harry Kane with a more realistic decent striker to complement Grant). We are in the EPL, and we still are for another couple of weeks, but, rock bottom of the table on 1st of January is hard pushed to describe as a “position of strength”. We do go into the new Championship season in a position of strength, we should have the finances in play to be able to bring in significant signings this summer (and arguably Grant should be considered as a signing for the Championship too...it seems highly unlikely we bought him because we expected him to be leading the line in a 2019/20 EPL season...and those significant signings should enable us to have a decent go at being a top 8 team, without screwing up the near future of the club in the meantime. |
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