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Post by kennyk2 on Sept 16, 2019 14:39:38 GMT 1
Seeing that PH has gone from zero to hero after one podcast, and that JS has... well... just gone, I was wondering who at the club were going to be the next fall guys. I blame Anne Hough myself! JS has not gone. He still knocking around the place. That's his ghost, haunting everybody. |
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Tiro
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by Tiro on Sept 16, 2019 14:46:06 GMT 1
Financially, of course, but you can't use that as the sole variable in defining it as the 'worst in the clubs history' as it is not comparable with all other seasons - you have to weigh up budget, the division and markets as whole and the outcome. On balance, all those players were signed were in a division where our budget was far higher than any other team (I refer to the Clark era of course). Where we didn't need to rummage in the basement. Our approach to recruitment was obviously built on the same bingo machine he used for team selection. [apologies, I have since edited my original post to go even further on Clark's reign]. And, in comparison, we had the lowest budget to play with in the PL - we operated in the PL's bargain bin. You are right. It’s not comparable with other seasons. We were in the Premier League, not League 1 and our pathetically poor recruitment meant that we threw away our PL status and now potentially, our place in the Championship as well. I'm not saying it wasn't bad, I'm arguing that it wasn't 'the worst in the clubs history'. Jee's. So to argue as much, we HAVE to compare it with other seasons or we are saying that HTAFC's entire transfer history only spans two seasons. So on balance, considering a) outlay (in relation to budget and respective divisional budget), b) expectation and c) result, I argue that 2008-2011 was collectively a period just as bad for transfers as the last two years. I haven't quite worked it out yet and is debatable because some perspectives are very relative, but for every success we had to sign approximately 4 players during Clark's reign (1:4). The number of failed transfers was huge in this period and is reflected in the turnover. AND we can't blame Josh Marsh for it, before you start....!  |
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Rambo
Tom Cowan Terrier
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Post by Rambo on Sept 16, 2019 14:47:31 GMT 1
So off the back of the worst recruitment in the clubs history which has cost the club its place in the top division and possibly soon the second you are wanting to sack the head of recruitment? Harsh. It's Marsh!! |
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mallyb
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by mallyb on Sept 16, 2019 14:53:07 GMT 1
These two need sacking they have recommended shite and should hang their heads in shame. What has Winter being doing for all his time supposedly being charge of operations? Making a dogs dinner of everything and Marsh at 26 being trusted as head of recruitment, well that's been an unmitigated disaster. To repeat what both Deano and Phil have said in recent weeks the MANAGER has the final say on transfers. Wagner wanted some fast wingers to supply the strikers then changed tactics after we bought them but he had the final say on what style of players he wanted and who was bought. Siewert had the final say in the latest transfer window the same way. No one claims the board have done a great job in recent months but lets be fair no one has at the club. Mistakes have been made and admitted and they are trying to get this rectified and move us ahead again, but constantly harping on about past mistakes and playing the blame game is not going to get us out of this mess. We have new managers in place who are far more qualified than any fan to see whats wrong at the club and more importantly change it. Whatever anyone thinks about Phil Hodgkinson he can see as well as the rest of us that a big change was needed and some new blood be brought it. Hes done that in getting us possibly the best up and coming English managers in the game. They have the experience and knowledge to try and get this squad working better and seeing who they need and can bring in the Jan transfer window. I cannot see them having signed for the club without some assurances that they will be able to spend in the Jan transfer window. And we will have to spend as you cannot make a silk purse out of sows ear but the board know that, the chairman knows that and so did the Cowley bros before they signed Well in the podcast Phil suggests it is unlikely anybody will come in January as there is no value in January. Secondly Wagner did pick these players, from the shortlist he was given. The rest of the list may have been much worse. Our head of recruitment has found 1 gem with a budget of £70m, and he was one of the top scorers in league 1 so not exactly hidden. |
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Sept 16, 2019 14:55:11 GMT 1
The Cowleys have said they will “audit” everything. Clearly they will look into the transfer dealings over the last year or two. Lessons will be learned. I have no doubt that changes will be made on the player recruitment side when they are ready.
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mallyb
Darren Bullock Terrier
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Post by mallyb on Sept 16, 2019 14:58:04 GMT 1
These two need sacking they have recommended shite and should hang their heads in shame. What has Winter being doing for all his time supposedly being charge of operations? Making a dogs dinner of everything and Marsh at 26 being trusted as head of recruitment, well that's been an unmitigated disaster. You are a clown. Neither DH nor PH seem to suffer fools when it comes to their money, but yet they continue to employ them. PH clearly rated Marsh in his podcast. And as PH says, we on the outside know 5% of what's going on. But you expect PH to sack them based on your limited assessment. Said exactly the same about JS in podcasts in the summer, as did many on here who just felt he needed more time. Either Marsh is head of finding players for the manager to chose from or he isn't. Mbenza & Diakaby should not have been on any short list. If he is so good out a CV together with the money spent on player recruitment he suggested during the Premier league riches and see if you would employ him? That is his job and he doesn't seem able to spot talent at all. |
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Post by keithAM11532 on Sept 16, 2019 14:59:39 GMT 1
Why do we have to blame someone? Just so you can be shouty? Do you need a target to aim your season ticket at? Exactly. The whole club was not ready for the premier league, and why would it be we hadnt been there ever in modern football and we weren't exactly planning for it happening. Why do people have to apportion blame 100% or even 50/50 to certain individuals. The failings ran (run) throughout the whole club but as ever with football fans there is no shade of grey, just black and white. Don't forget Webber muttering - league 1 club at best, as he left to join Norwich...Imagine if we had Pukki. |
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Post by Mastercracker on Sept 16, 2019 15:29:56 GMT 1
Exactly. The whole club was not ready for the premier league, and why would it be we hadnt been there ever in modern football and we weren't exactly planning for it happening. Why do people have to apportion blame 100% or even 50/50 to certain individuals. The failings ran (run) throughout the whole club but as ever with football fans there is no shade of grey, just black and white. Don't forget Webber muttering - league 1 club at best, as he left to join Norwich...Imagine if we had Pukki. Indeed. The set up behind the scenes just isnt there and personally I think Hoyle paid lip service to recruitment/academy but never saw the value in improving them. Bar VLP who was Webbers and Mooy who was luck really, the rest of the 16/17 first team signings were all known to Wagner. Once we had exhausted that and actually needed to scout properly its all gone wrong. It's easy to blame Marsh but for all we know he could be brilliant but not have the money/resources to do any better. And its easy to blame Wagner for having final say but like I keep saying, if the list given is Diakhaby, Mbenza, Limbombe and Traore, and billionaire backed Wolves nick Traore, what use is final say when none are good enough? Wilson also said similar - Bigger than Watford in stadium/support, L1 and light years behind off the pitch was a quote I remember. I thought it said a lot when Wilson didnt come back after we got promoted. He didnt go to Southampton to be the main man and still isnt, so from the outside it would have seemed the perfect opportunity. |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 16, 2019 15:38:25 GMT 1
Not sure what is to be gained by looking backward. Especially with a new chairman and manager
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Post by Mastercracker on Sept 16, 2019 15:42:40 GMT 1
Not sure what is to be gained by looking backward. Especially with a new chairman and manager You are right. It's just so sodding frustrating. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 15:52:35 GMT 1
Don't forget Webber muttering - league 1 club at best, as he left to join Norwich...Imagine if we had Pukki. Indeed. The set up behind the scenes just isnt there and personally I think Hoyle paid lip service to recruitment/academy but never saw the value in improving them. Bar VLP who was Webbers and Mooy who was luck really, the rest of the 16/17 first team signings were all known to Wagner. Once we had exhausted that and actually needed to scout properly its all gone wrong. It's easy to blame Marsh but for all we know he could be brilliant but not have the money/resources to do any better. And its easy to blame Wagner for having final say but like I keep saying, if the list given is Diakhaby, Mbenza, Limbombe and Traore, and billionaire backed Wolves nick Traore, what use is final say when none are good enough? Wilson also said similar - Bigger than Watford in stadium/support, L1 and light years behind off the pitch was a quote I remember. I thought it said a lot when Wilson didnt come back after we got promoted. He didnt go to Southampton to be the main man and still isnt, so from the outside it would have seemed the perfect opportunity. The lack of accountability at several levels within the club has been a joke and it's come home to roost. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 15:56:34 GMT 1
Not sure what is to be gained by looking backward. Especially with a new chairman and manager And the £20million + infrastructure and improvements that Wilson and Webber craved, in the process of being built at Canalside. |
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Post by Mastercracker on Sept 16, 2019 15:58:23 GMT 1
Not sure what is to be gained by looking backward. Especially with a new chairman and manager And the £20million + infrastructure and improvements that Wilson and Webber craved, in the process of being built at Canalside. Training yes. Unsure if this extends to better/more scouting though? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 16:03:18 GMT 1
And the £20million + infrastructure and improvements that Wilson and Webber craved, in the process of being built at Canalside. Training yes. Unsure if this extends to better/more scouting though? That's why I quoted Wilson and Webber who have been brought up on this thread, their complaints were related to League One facilities. As regards recruitment Webb is now here along with the Cowleys, anything could be possible |
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Post by HuddsTerrier on Sept 16, 2019 16:12:49 GMT 1
I didn't think it was in any doubt?! No period of recruitment has even come close and probably never will again  If you can think of a worse one let me know... I'm not advocating sacking anyone btw but I can see why people would. It's all relative isn't it (there are many variables), which is why it is ridiculous to define it as much. My knowledge of Town doesn't surpass 1994 (the person that made such a comment must be an elderly gentleman / or women at best), but so far as notable failures in my lifetime: Do you remember when we sold Marcus Stewart, in January 2000, to a promotion rival, and then signed the likes of Kevin Kyle, Rob Kozluk, Chris hay, Jim Brennan, and Kevin Gallen the following year? That ended well. I also remember the year we signed approx 21 players in one season (2008/2009, Ternent and Clark combined). It didn't end in misery and some of those players went on to achieve good things at the club, but if we're talking about spaffing money up the wall then we had a fucking good go that year. It was so good infact, we only needed to purchase another 13 players the season after, in which we finished 6th, scrapping into the playoffs only to be knocked out by a team that operated on a third of our budget. That did end in misery. Not to be out done by the previous season, we went to sign a further 17 players over the course of the 2010-11 in a division which again couldn't compete with us financially. We finished 3rd that year, making the play-off final only for..... So yeah, in terms of periods of terrible transfer activity, I'd plump for 2008-2011. It's all relative though and those players cost buttons in the scheme of things. It would also be fairer to compare the scouting resources in 2018 to previous eras It's easier to list the deals we've got right since May 2018 ... it's Grant Bacuna and Durn are okay. Kongolo is a good player but not justified his 20m Euro price tag Bad signings are Hamer (Green a better back up), Puncheon, Diakhaby (5th highest signing in history), Mbenza (4th highest signing in history), Sobhi (worse signing ever IMO and alone cost more than Norwich's side which won promotion last season!) Scarily we signed these players for the league above yet AD and IM have done far less say O'Brien this season Early days with this summer signings but no one pulling up any trees yet aside from the loanees - we also seemed to have lost first teamers and not replaced them with Championship ready players Outgoings we got a low fee on Lolley, Billing was low when compared to what say Bristol City or Brentford did with players who'd only played in the Championship I can't see any defence of the recruitment which has seen £10m's wasted to create a team far worse than the one we built for £5m in 2016/17 |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Sept 16, 2019 16:37:46 GMT 1
The Cowleys have said they will “audit” everything. Clearly they will look into the transfer dealings over the last year or two. Lessons will be learned. I have no doubt that changes will be made on the player recruitment side when they are ready. Yeah I'd leave signing players up to the manager because the old system has seen us sign some right horrors. |
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Post by Mastercracker on Sept 16, 2019 16:42:26 GMT 1
Training yes. Unsure if this extends to better/more scouting though? That's why I quoted Wilson and Webber who have been brought up on this thread, their complaints were related to League One facilities. As regards recruitment Webb is now here along with the Cowleys, anything could be possible It's deeper than just Webb/Wilson/Marsh/training ground though. I'm sure part of what they were refeering to was the Training ground, so hopefully thats job ticked soon. But I think a big part of what they were on about was scouting/recruitment. How many do we have? How many analysts do we have watching videos of potential signings back at ranch? Do we have contacts with agents in germany/spain/france etc. If we get a tip off about a potential foreign signing how quickly can we make an informed decison? I dont know in all honesty but I suspect we arent great on this front and Webb and a nice new building wont change this without support from above. Hopefully its there. For an example look at how much better Brentford seem in this regard to us, never mind premier league sides. I think a part is mentality too. I think Watford do 'premier league things' cos they believe they belong. I dont think we ever really did and that came from the top. |
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Post by Essex Terrier on Sept 16, 2019 16:42:58 GMT 1
These two need sacking they have recommended shite and should hang their heads in shame. What has Winter being doing for all his time supposedly being charge of operations? Making a dogs dinner of everything and Marsh at 26 being trusted as head of recruitment, well that's been an unmitigated disaster. Sack Marsh & Winter....that's three, surely? |
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Tiro
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by Tiro on Sept 16, 2019 16:53:12 GMT 1
Indeed. The set up behind the scenes just isnt there and personally I think Hoyle paid lip service to recruitment/academy but never saw the value in improving them. Bar VLP who was Webbers and Mooy who was luck really, the rest of the 16/17 first team signings were all known to Wagner. Once we had exhausted that and actually needed to scout properly its all gone wrong. It's easy to blame Marsh but for all we know he could be brilliant but not have the money/resources to do any better. And its easy to blame Wagner for having final say but like I keep saying, if the list given is Diakhaby, Mbenza, Limbombe and Traore, and billionaire backed Wolves nick Traore, what use is final say when none are good enough? Wilson also said similar - Bigger than Watford in stadium/support, L1 and light years behind off the pitch was a quote I remember. I thought it said a lot when Wilson didnt come back after we got promoted. He didnt go to Southampton to be the main man and still isnt, so from the outside it would have seemed the perfect opportunity. The lack of accountability at several levels within the club has been a joke and it's come home to roost. How so? What's the joke? We have a new chairman; both the outgoing and incoming persons have admitted to frailties and errors of judgement / mistakes of management. We can't blame the majority of this on PH, his tenure has just begun. If you want to learn about where the money has gone/is, you can read up to 2018 (it's all in print); PH provides clarity on the rest. Or you can wait until 2019's finances are in print. We have sacked two managers; they have taken some/most of the accountability. We have a new Head of Football: we cycled through Directors of Football / Heads of football like they're confetti. Its a point that has clearly failed, the club have acknowledged this. It wasn't deliberate, I just didn't work out whether that was recruiting the right persons for the job or the club being the right fit. It meant that Winter had to work outside of his remit (he is head of operations, not football!) and pick up the pieces and run two jobs. It also meant that Josh Marsh largely had to operate largely on his own, with limited guidance but he doesn't set the criteria; he works to find what the manger wants and for the money the board will allow. Admittedly the circumstances probably resulted in a negative effect on transfers (which, but the way has been admitted), but the manager has the last word: ultimately he picks from the list and says who he wants. You can blame Winter for working his bollocks off, undertaking two roles (one of which is a role he's not familiar with or not qualified to do) and trying to do his utmost best for the club, but it would be harsh and misguided in my opinion. You can rage at Marsh for operating under such circumstances, but he doesn't set the budget, dictate the market (who we can and can't buy, who is interested or not) or tell the manager who to buy. Who else do you want to take accountability? I think what people really want is someone to point the finger at and direct their anger towards because that will make them feel better, when in honesty its just not a simple as that. I get it, it's shit, it wasn't/isn't great. But we need to calm the fuck down and stop this mindless slagging off everyone. Stop fucking wetting yourselves. |
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Tiro
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Posts: 4,025
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Post by Tiro on Sept 16, 2019 16:59:01 GMT 1
The Cowleys have said they will “audit” everything. Clearly they will look into the transfer dealings over the last year or two. Lessons will be learned. I have no doubt that changes will be made on the player recruitment side when they are ready. Yeah I'd leave signing players up to the manager because the old system has seen us sign some right horrors. That is and has always been the system: with DW, with JS and now with the Cowleys. They dictate what they want. They had and have the final say. |
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mallyb
Darren Bullock Terrier
Posts: 926
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Post by mallyb on Sept 16, 2019 17:01:14 GMT 1
Not sure what is to be gained by looking backward. Especially with a new chairman and manager And the £20million + infrastructure and improvements that Wilson and Webber craved, in the process of being built at Canalside. It will be a great asset for Dean paid for with our premier league money. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 17:03:40 GMT 1
That's why I quoted Wilson and Webber who have been brought up on this thread, their complaints were related to League One facilities. As regards recruitment Webb is now here along with the Cowleys, anything could be possible It's deeper than just Webb/Wilson/Marsh/training ground though. I'm sure part of what they were refeering to was the Training ground, so hopefully thats job ticked soon. But I think a big part of what they were on about was scouting/recruitment. How many do we have? How many analysts do we have watching videos of potential signings back at ranch? Do we have contacts with agents in germany/spain/france etc. If we get a tip off about a potential foreign signing how quickly can we make an informed decison? I dont know in all honesty but I suspect we arent great on this front and Webb and a nice new building wont change this without support from above. Hopefully its there. For an example look at how much better Brentford seem in this regard to us, never mind premier league sides. I think a part is mentality too. I think Watford do 'premier league things' cos they believe they belong. I dont think we ever really did and that came from the top. I have no idea how extensive our scouting network is. Under Moss we had fifteen full and part time scouts. |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Sept 16, 2019 17:04:07 GMT 1
Yeah I'd leave signing players up to the manager because the old system has seen us sign some right horrors. That is and has always been the system: with DW, with JS and now with the Cowleys. They dictate what they want. They had and have the final say. Cut out the middle man, it's not worked, the club's procedure for sourcing and signing players is flawed, wretchedly floored. |
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Tiro
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by Tiro on Sept 16, 2019 17:04:13 GMT 1
The Cowleys have said they will “audit” everything. Clearly they will look into the transfer dealings over the last year or two. Lessons will be learned. I have no doubt that changes will be made on the player recruitment side when they are ready. Just a question, did they actually say they would audit the last two year's 'transfer dealings' / which part makes that clear or is that an assumption? I just get what they stand to benefit from it. Or why its up to them to hold an internal investigation on every transfer for the last two years. Surely they just need to be sure of the processes from here onwards and ensure they are satisfied with that? |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Sept 16, 2019 17:05:17 GMT 1
It's deeper than just Webb/Wilson/Marsh/training ground though. I'm sure part of what they were refeering to was the Training ground, so hopefully thats job ticked soon. But I think a big part of what they were on about was scouting/recruitment. How many do we have? How many analysts do we have watching videos of potential signings back at ranch? Do we have contacts with agents in germany/spain/france etc. If we get a tip off about a potential foreign signing how quickly can we make an informed decison? I dont know in all honesty but I suspect we arent great on this front and Webb and a nice new building wont change this without support from above. Hopefully its there. For an example look at how much better Brentford seem in this regard to us, never mind premier league sides. I think a part is mentality too. I think Watford do 'premier league things' cos they believe they belong. I dont think we ever really did and that came from the top. I have no idea how extensive our scouting network is. Under Moss we had fifteen full and part time scouts. 15? I bet most PL clubs and top end championship clubs have 50 on their books. |
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Tiro
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
Posts: 4,025
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Post by Tiro on Sept 16, 2019 17:07:08 GMT 1
That is and has always been the system: with DW, with JS and now with the Cowleys. They dictate what they want. They had and have the final say. Cut out the middle man, it's not worked, the club's procedure for sourcing and signing players is flawed, wretchedly floored. You seem to be very assured of how our recruitment model operated, at process level (despite being unaware that the managers have the final say on transfers). Care to explain the detailed inner workings and put all this speculation to bed? It would be helpful. |
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Post by benhomly on Sept 16, 2019 17:07:53 GMT 1
The lack of accountability at several levels within the club has been a joke and it's come home to roost. How so? What's the joke? We have a new chairman; both the outgoing and incoming persons have admitted to frailties and errors of judgement / mistakes of management. We can't blame the majority of this on PH, his tenure has just begun. If you want to learn about where the money has gone/is, you can read up to 2018 (it's all in print); PH provides clarity on the rest. Or you can wait until 2019's finances are in print. We have sacked two managers; they have taken some/most of the accountability. We have a new Head of Football: we cycled through Directors of Football / Heads of football like they're confetti. Its a point that has clearly failed, the club have acknowledged this. It wasn't deliberate, I just didn't work out whether that was recruiting the right persons for the job or the club being the right fit. It meant that Winter had to work outside of his remit (he is head of operations, not football!) and pick up the pieces and run two jobs. It also meant that Josh Marsh largely had to operate largely on his own, with limited guidance but he doesn't set the criteria; he works to find what the manger wants and for the money the board will allow. Admittedly the circumstances probably resulted in a negative effect on transfers (which, but the way has been admitted), but the manager has the last word: ultimately he picks from the list and says who he wants. You can blame Winter for working his bollocks off, undertaking two roles (one of which is a role he's not familiar with or not qualified to do) and trying to do his utmost best for the club, but it would be harsh and misguided in my opinion. You can rage at Marsh for operating under such circumstances, but he doesn't set the budget, dictate the market (who we can and can't buy, who is interested or not) or tell the manager who to buy. Who else do you want to take accountability? I think what people really want is someone to point the finger at and direct their anger towards because that will make them feel better, when in honesty its just not a simple as that. I get it, it's shit, it wasn't/isn't great. But we need to calm the fuck down and stop this mindless slagging off everyone. Stop fucking wetting yourselves. Why is it when criticising the club people are made out to be 'wetting themselves' or some other similar term to make out that they are some sort of big kid or something? It's like the club and all those associated with it are out of reach of us mere supporters and we should just be happy with everything they do. I'm sure they do their best but sometimes that's just not good enough. If the company you work for (if indeed you do work for someone else) was so badly managed that it went out of business and you lost your job would you be happy to just accept that they did their best or would you have your say? Or maybe I should have just responded to your post by saying try pulling your head out from up your arse and smell the coffee  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 17:10:04 GMT 1
And the £20million + infrastructure and improvements that Wilson and Webber craved, in the process of being built at Canalside. It will be a great asset for Dean paid for with our premier league money. You have no idea what the arrangement is, how it's being paid for or who owns what. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 17:14:01 GMT 1
I have no idea how extensive our scouting network is. Under Moss we had fifteen full and part time scouts. 15? I bet most PL clubs and top end championship clubs have 50 on their books. You bet?? You mean you don't know.  |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Sept 16, 2019 17:18:15 GMT 1
15? I bet most PL clubs and top end championship clubs have 50 on their books. You bet?? You mean you don't know. Of course I don't know but it's hard to imagine clubs having 15 or so scouts on their books. |
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