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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Sept 16, 2019 17:23:52 GMT 1
The Cowleys have said they will “audit” everything. Clearly they will look into the transfer dealings over the last year or two. Lessons will be learned. I have no doubt that changes will be made on the player recruitment side when they are ready. Just a question, did they actually say they would audit the last two year's 'transfer dealings' / which part makes that clear or is that an assumption? I just get what they stand to benefit from it. Or why its up to them to hold an internal investigation on every transfer for the last two years. Surely they just need to be sure of the processes from here onwards and ensure they are satisfied with that? They didn’t specify the last year or two, per se, but they definitely said they’d be “auditing” the club extensively in order to understand the club and its staff, so it’s logical to assume they’ll be looking very, very closely at player recruitment. It’s pretty obvious that recruitment hasn’t exactly been successful the last year or two, don’t you agree? |
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Tiro
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Post by Tiro on Sept 16, 2019 17:24:21 GMT 1
How so? What's the joke? We have a new chairman; both the outgoing and incoming persons have admitted to frailties and errors of judgement / mistakes of management. We can't blame the majority of this on PH, his tenure has just begun. If you want to learn about where the money has gone/is, you can read up to 2018 (it's all in print); PH provides clarity on the rest. Or you can wait until 2019's finances are in print. We have sacked two managers; they have taken some/most of the accountability. We have a new Head of Football: we cycled through Directors of Football / Heads of football like they're confetti. Its a point that has clearly failed, the club have acknowledged this. It wasn't deliberate, I just didn't work out whether that was recruiting the right persons for the job or the club being the right fit. It meant that Winter had to work outside of his remit (he is head of operations, not football!) and pick up the pieces and run two jobs. It also meant that Josh Marsh largely had to operate largely on his own, with limited guidance but he doesn't set the criteria; he works to find what the manger wants and for the money the board will allow. Admittedly the circumstances probably resulted in a negative effect on transfers (which, but the way has been admitted), but the manager has the last word: ultimately he picks from the list and says who he wants. You can blame Winter for working his bollocks off, undertaking two roles (one of which is a role he's not familiar with or not qualified to do) and trying to do his utmost best for the club, but it would be harsh and misguided in my opinion. You can rage at Marsh for operating under such circumstances, but he doesn't set the budget, dictate the market (who we can and can't buy, who is interested or not) or tell the manager who to buy. Who else do you want to take accountability? I think what people really want is someone to point the finger at and direct their anger towards because that will make them feel better, when in honesty its just not a simple as that. I get it, it's shit, it wasn't/isn't great. But we need to calm the fuck down and stop this mindless slagging off everyone. Stop fucking wetting yourselves. Why is it when criticising the club people are made out to be 'wetting themselves' or some other similar term to make out that they are some sort of big kid or something? It's like the club and all those associated with it are out of reach of us mere supporters and we should just be happy with everything they do. I'm sure they do their best but sometimes that's just not good enough. If the company you work for (if indeed you do work for someone else) was so badly managed that it went out of business and you lost your job would you be happy to just accept that they did their best or would you have your say? Or maybe I should have just responded to your post by saying try pulling your head out from up your arse and smell the coffee  Nope, fair to criticise. I don't mind it, I have done it; I have been vocally critical of the Cowley appointment and negative with respect to how I surmised Sunday's tactics and performances. I also agree and admit on numerous occasions that recruitment has been shit. If people have fair reasoning and take care to articulate it, go for it. But at least try and value to board and the discussion. What I am getting really fucked off with is people just getting mindlessly shouty; criticising him and him and her, without actually knowing what they're shouty for. And its the veracity with which it's done. Take the OP for example, admits they don't know what Winter does but wants them sacked regardless because it's all their fault. Its endless ear slugdge. It was 'potless Phill's 'fault, now, because he got a manager people like its onto bashing Winter and Marsh and we want them sacked, made accountable, publicly shamed. Maybe I should have said; 'get a fucking grip', perhaps? |
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Post by benhomly on Sept 16, 2019 17:25:56 GMT 1
Why is it when criticising the club people are made out to be 'wetting themselves' or some other similar term to make out that they are some sort of big kid or something? It's like the club and all those associated with it are out of reach of us mere supporters and we should just be happy with everything they do. I'm sure they do their best but sometimes that's just not good enough. If the company you work for (if indeed you do work for someone else) was so badly managed that it went out of business and you lost your job would you be happy to just accept that they did their best or would you have your say? Or maybe I should have just responded to your post by saying try pulling your head out from up your arse and smell the coffee Nope, fair to criticise. I don't mind it, I have done it; I have been vocally critical of the Cowley appointment and negative with respect to how I surmised Sunday's tactics and performances. I also agree and admit on numerous occasions that recruitment has been shit. If people have fair reasoning and take care to articulate it, go for it. But at least try and value to board and the discussion. What I am getting really fucked off with is people just getting mindlessly shouty; criticising him and him and her, without actually knowing what they're shouty for. And its the veracity with which it's done. Take the OP for example, admits they don't know what Winter does but wants them sacked regardless because it's all their fault. Its endless ear slugdge. It was 'potless Phill's 'fault, now, because he got a manager people like its onto bashing Winter and Marsh and we want them sacked, made accountable, publicly shamed. Maybe I should have said; 'get a fucking grip', perhaps? That would work |
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Post by Tiro on Sept 16, 2019 17:26:12 GMT 1
Just a question, did they actually say they would audit the last two year's 'transfer dealings' / which part makes that clear or is that an assumption? I just get what they stand to benefit from it. Or why its up to them to hold an internal investigation on every transfer for the last two years. Surely they just need to be sure of the processes from here onwards and ensure they are satisfied with that? They didn’t specify the last year or two, per se, but they definitely said they’d be “auditing” the club extensively in order to understand the club and its staff, so it’s logical to assume they’ll be looking very, very closely at player recruitment. It’s pretty obvious that recruitment hasn’t exactly been successful the last year or two, don’t you agree? I don't disagree and think that's perfectly reasonable, I just didn't / don't perhaps understand the bit about the analysis of previous transfer dealings. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 17:31:54 GMT 1
You bet?? You mean you don't know.  Of course I don't know but it's hard to imagine clubs having 15 or so scouts on their books. Manchester United have approx. 50. Bearing in mind this is West Brom 2017. West Bromwich Albion Nicky Hammond, Albion’s technical director, oversees recruitment and also has responsibility for the scouting department. Brought in from Reading 14 months ago and vastly experienced, Hammond coordinates the club’s five domestic full-time scouts and a further six full-time scouts in Europe. Matty Phillips, signed from QPR for £6m last summer, is one of Hammond’s success stories, with the winger enjoying an excellent first season. Albion also have a recruitment manager, Jonathan Gibson, who works from the training ground and has responsibility for the video analysis of players of interest. Tony Pulis, Albion’s manager, has the final say on any signings. SJ |
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Post by Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier on Sept 16, 2019 17:32:32 GMT 1
They didn’t specify the last year or two, per se, but they definitely said they’d be “auditing” the club extensively in order to understand the club and its staff, so it’s logical to assume they’ll be looking very, very closely at player recruitment. It’s pretty obvious that recruitment hasn’t exactly been successful the last year or two, don’t you agree? I don't disagree and think that's perfectly reasonable, I just didn't / don't perhaps understand the bit about the analysis of previous transfer dealings. The Cowleys will need to understand why it is that HTAFC has spent a relative fortune on several signings that collectively, up until now at least, have been complete disasters. Any responsible organisation would surely want to understand why that was. Note I’ve not named any names, maybe it’s just the process that was/is wrong, rather than any particular individual? |
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Post by bluestripe on Sept 16, 2019 17:34:48 GMT 1
OK blame no one and carry on sinking, seems a plan. Your negativity, irrelevant on its own but when combined with other similar views in the social media echo chamber, is certainly not helping. Are you a half full or half empty glass sort of guy? Looks to me like you are seeing it as totally empty. |
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Post by royrace on Sept 16, 2019 17:42:33 GMT 1
I don't disagree and think that's perfectly reasonable, I just didn't / don't perhaps understand the bit about the analysis of previous transfer dealings. The Cowleys will need to understand why it is that HTAFC has spent a relative fortune on several signings that collectively, up until now at least, have been complete disasters. Any responsible organisation would surely want to understand why that was. Note I’ve not named any names, maybe it’s just the process that was/is wrong, rather than any particular individual? I'd hope analysis of transfer dealings would be top of anyone's list. Analysing failure is very important in any business, particularly where millions of pounds has been wasted resulting in a huge loss of revenue. Publicly it seems the club is in denial and quite happy to pin all of the failings on Wagner (had the final say blah blah blah). I find that a bit worrying not to mention disrespectful to Wagner, Phil and Dean both singing from the same hymn sheet though. Makes you wonder why they even employed a head of recruitment and a DoF if it was all down to Dave. I just hope internally they aren't quite as blase about it (I'm sure they're not). I guess bringing Webb in is a massive step in the right direction. |
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Post by mallyb on Sept 16, 2019 17:45:12 GMT 1
It will be a great asset for Dean paid for with our premier league money. You have no idea what the arrangement is, how it's being paid for or who owns what. Until somebody makes a statement to the contrary we know Dean owns Canalside (phil told us last week) and we know the Prem money is paying for the £21M because Dean told us when it was based on us getting a 2nd year in the premier league. So maybe you don't want to know so you throw misleading statements like yours around. Did the same thing from Memory defending Jan last season, demanding more time. How's that decision worked out for the club? |
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Post by Tiro on Sept 16, 2019 17:48:19 GMT 1
I don't disagree and think that's perfectly reasonable, I just didn't / don't perhaps understand the bit about the analysis of previous transfer dealings. The Cowleys will need to understand why it is that HTAFC has spent a relative fortune on several signings that collectively, up until now at least, have been complete disasters. Any responsible organisation would surely want to understand why that was. Note I’ve not named any names, maybe it’s just the process that was/is wrong, rather than any particular individual? Yes, I agree with you. On balance (working on we do know or what is in the public domain) I think it was cocktail of: - Wagner changing his philosophy (only to back-track), - Town not being competitive in the market and unable to secure primary targets, - The ripple-effect of the market crushing our ability to be competitive, even in the PL (i.e. ridiculous fee's for unproven or middling players like £12m for Danny Ward, £22m for Maddison, £20m for Solanke, £10m for Afobe, £35m for Drinkwater etc etc... not to mention astronomical wages), - Town's frugality and being risk-averse / determination to run the club sustainably (depending on how you look at it), - The mutliple appointments of the DoF/HoF, - Winter stepping in to assist in a unfamiliar role, - the in-experience of JS, and - probably some blame at the heart of identifying players. I think that's what Guy Garvey dubbed a 'Grounds for Divorce'. |
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Post by davethesprout on Sept 16, 2019 17:53:10 GMT 1
These two need sacking they have recommended shite and should hang their heads in shame. What has Winter being doing for all his time supposedly being charge of operations? Making a dogs dinner of everything and Marsh at 26 being trusted as head of recruitment, well that's been an unmitigated disaster. Jarvis is hard to like loves Himself ! My son flew to america on same Flight 2 years ago ! he said Don`t you Know who i am ! Cocky Arrogant ! but least of our Problems |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Sept 16, 2019 18:03:04 GMT 1
Of course I don't know but it's hard to imagine clubs having 15 or so scouts on their books. Manchester United have approx. 50. Bearing in mind this is West Brom 2017. West Bromwich Albion Nicky Hammond, Albion’s technical director, oversees recruitment and also has responsibility for the scouting department. Brought in from Reading 14 months ago and vastly experienced, Hammond coordinates the club’s five domestic full-time scouts and a further six full-time scouts in Europe. Matty Phillips, signed from QPR for £6m last summer, is one of Hammond’s success stories, with the winger enjoying an excellent first season. Albion also have a recruitment manager, Jonathan Gibson, who works from the training ground and has responsibility for the video analysis of players of interest. Tony Pulis, Albion’s manager, has the final say on any signings. SJ I'd still say that was low for a club of West Broms size. I would expect most clubs' worth their salt to be operating with 30 to 50 scouts, although that might seem the norm then. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 18:08:08 GMT 1
Why is it when criticising the club people are made out to be 'wetting themselves' or some other similar term to make out that they are some sort of big kid or something? It's like the club and all those associated with it are out of reach of us mere supporters and we should just be happy with everything they do. I'm sure they do their best but sometimes that's just not good enough. If the company you work for (if indeed you do work for someone else) was so badly managed that it went out of business and you lost your job would you be happy to just accept that they did their best or would you have your say? Or maybe I should have just responded to your post by saying try pulling your head out from up your arse and smell the coffee Nope, fair to criticise. I don't mind it, I have done it; I have been vocally critical of the Cowley appointment and negative with respect to how I surmised Sunday's tactics and performances. I also agree and admit on numerous occasions that recruitment has been shit. If people have fair reasoning and take care to articulate it, go for it. But at least try and value to board and the discussion. What I am getting really fucked off with is people just getting mindlessly shouty; criticising him and him and her, without actually knowing what they're shouty for. And its the veracity with which it's done. Take the OP for example, admits they don't know what Winter does but wants them sacked regardless because it's all their fault. Its endless ear slugdge. It was 'potless Phill's 'fault, now, because he got a manager people like its onto bashing Winter and Marsh and we want them sacked, made accountable, publicly shamed. Maybe I should have said; 'get a fucking grip', perhaps? I think my post has perhaps been misinterpreted somewhat or wasn't worded correctly re accountability. You could look at the Paddy Power affair for example and ask who's accountable for that **** up that's cost the club £50k. Were procedures followed so the board were all aligned with the deal? Etc, Etc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 18:12:08 GMT 1
You have no idea what the arrangement is, how it's being paid for or who owns what. Until somebody makes a statement to the contrary we know Dean owns Canalside (phil told us last week) and we know the Prem money is paying for the £21M because Dean told us when it was based on us getting a 2nd year in the premier league. So maybe you don't want to know so you throw misleading statements like yours around. Did the same thing from Memory defending Jan last season, demanding more time. How's that decision worked out for the club? At the time I felt that Jan deserved a chance in the Championship, I haven't changed my mind. By the way I own my own house, have spent loadsa money on it but.....I don't own the ground it's stood on. I could if I wish purchase the lease. As Dean said, I will rent at a very attractive rate, or sell. |
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Post by Tiro on Sept 16, 2019 18:18:18 GMT 1
Nope, fair to criticise. I don't mind it, I have done it; I have been vocally critical of the Cowley appointment and negative with respect to how I surmised Sunday's tactics and performances. I also agree and admit on numerous occasions that recruitment has been shit. If people have fair reasoning and take care to articulate it, go for it. But at least try and value to board and the discussion. What I am getting really fucked off with is people just getting mindlessly shouty; criticising him and him and her, without actually knowing what they're shouty for. And its the veracity with which it's done. Take the OP for example, admits they don't know what Winter does but wants them sacked regardless because it's all their fault. Its endless ear slugdge. It was 'potless Phill's 'fault, now, because he got a manager people like its onto bashing Winter and Marsh and we want them sacked, made accountable, publicly shamed. Maybe I should have said; 'get a fucking grip', perhaps? I think my post has perhaps been misinterpreted somewhat or wasn't worded correctly re accountability. You could look at the Paddy Power affair for example and ask who's accountable for that **** up that's cost the club £50k. Were procedures followed so the board were all aligned with the deal? Etc, Etc.
Fair enough. On the PP front it was PH and commercial director SJ. PH has said as much and acknowledged it was a fuck-up in his podcast interview. They’ve leant lessons. Other oversights were selling players (assets) that are long-term servants for considerable fees and not recognising that they have to pay a substantial amount of tax on these players because their value is taken by HMRC to be zero. So, in the words of PH, this years installer of monies for Tommy Smith and Phil Billing is in the pocket of HMRC. We won’t have monies from the proceeds of their respective sales to spend until next year. Probably because it’s been so fucking long since we had and sold a long serving player for a decent fee! I’m short, everyone with some modicum of responsibility has made mistakes of varying magnitudes. Probably because we were simply not ready for the PL and so far behind. |
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Post by jqhtfc on Sept 16, 2019 18:31:58 GMT 1
PH decision to get rid or not but serious questions do need asking re marsh we’ve had three shocking transfer windows of which he’s been heavily involved in!
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Post by davethesprout on Sept 16, 2019 19:56:34 GMT 1
PH decision to get rid or not but serious questions do need asking re marsh we’ve had three shocking transfer windows of which he’s been heavily involved in! Agree i Don`t think the fans Respect anybody at the club @ the moment .Have you noticed all the Empty seats ! Fans with Tickets/cards are just not Coming ! who can blame them if we had not signed Campbell we would have had only 2 Strikers on the books ! that comes with playing one up front ! Massive played as a team & won because they had a Decent Winger (and we had Flo ) and a couple of Decent Strikers ! We had our leading Scorer Taking ( trying to ) Corners & nobody to could cross a decent ball into the box Wonder why We let Mooy go Before we had a Replacement ! Yet that was the reason other clubs ( well run ) would not let players leave ! before they had replaced them |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 20:26:58 GMT 1
Why do we have to blame someone? Just so you can be shouty? Do you need a target to aim your season ticket at? Exactly. The whole club was not ready for the premier league, and why would it be we hadnt been there ever in modern football and we weren't exactly planning for it happening. Why do people have to apportion blame 100% or even 50/50 to certain individuals. The failings ran (run) throughout the whole club but as ever with football fans there is no shade of grey, just black and white. well said |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 20:28:16 GMT 1
Not sure what is to be gained by looking backward. Especially with a new chairman and manager
Knowledge and experience,, History that is not known nor spoke about will be repeated,,
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Post by Headless Chicken on Sept 16, 2019 20:30:47 GMT 1
PH decision to get rid or not but serious questions do need asking re marsh we’ve had three shocking transfer windows of which he’s been heavily involved in! Agree i Don`t think the fans Respect anybody at the club @ the moment .Have you noticed all the Empty seats ! Fans with Tickets/cards are just not Coming ! who can blame them if we had not signed Campbell we would have had only 2 Strikers on the books ! that comes with playing one up front ! Massive played as a team & won because they had a Decent Winger (and we had Flo ) and a couple of Decent Strikers ! We had our leading Scorer Taking ( trying to ) Corners & nobody to could cross a decent ball into the box Wonder why We let Mooy go Before we had a Replacement ! Yet that was the reason other clubs ( well run ) would not let players leave ! before they had replaced them The last point has been answered. Listen to the recent podcast. |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 16, 2019 20:32:38 GMT 1
Not sure what is to be gained by looking backward. Especially with a new chairman and manager
Knowledge and experience,, History that is not known nor spoke about will be repeated,,
So you think a gang of blokes, who weren't there, and know the square root of fuck all, endlessly debating stuff that is history is somehow going to make everything better? Leave it... Its gone. New chairman new managers. The only matches that actually count are the ones we've not played yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 20:33:59 GMT 1
Knowledge and experience,, History that is not known nor spoke about will be repeated,,
So you think a gang of blokes, who weren't there, and know the square root of fuck all, endlessly debating stuff that is history is somehow going to make everything better? Leave it... Its gone. New chairman new managers. The only matches that actually count are the ones we've not played yet. good lad spot on |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 20:43:07 GMT 1
These two need sacking they have recommended shite and should hang their heads in shame. What has Winter being doing for all his time supposedly being charge of operations? Making a dogs dinner of everything and Marsh at 26 being trusted as head of recruitment, well that's been an unmitigated disaster. Jarvis is hard to like loves Himself ! My son flew to america on same Flight 2 years ago ! he said Don`t you Know who i am ! Cocky Arrogant ! but least of our Problems How did that come about, did he just go up to him and say "Don't you know who I am". "I'm Sean Jarvis I am".  |
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Post by Million Dollar Babies on Sept 16, 2019 20:47:37 GMT 1
People keep siding with Marsh by saying that Wagner had final say and it's true but we don't know what other players were on the list for Wagner to decide between
It'd be interesting to know and I'm assuming some of them have gone on to do decent and that's why Marsh is still in a job.
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Post by Mastercracker on Sept 16, 2019 21:07:18 GMT 1
People keep siding with Marsh by saying that Wagner had final say and it's true but we don't know what other players were on the list for Wagner to decide between It'd be interesting to know and I'm assuming some of them have gone on to do decent and that's why Marsh is still in a job. Well Limbombe went on to do nothing, and Traore was always gonna pick money no object wolves over us but still looks crap to me. But yeah it would be interesting. And also impossible to apportion blame without knowing, but that won’t stop most. |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Sept 16, 2019 21:21:04 GMT 1
People keep siding with Marsh by saying that Wagner had final say and it's true but we don't know what other players were on the list for Wagner to decide between It'd be interesting to know and I'm assuming some of them have gone on to do decent and that's why Marsh is still in a job. Well Limbombe went on to do nothing, and Traore was always gonna pick money no object wolves over us but still looks crap to me. But yeah it would be interesting. And also impossible to apportion blame without knowing, but that won’t stop most. If I'm the manager and I'm going to get sacked for crap results I'd want to be involved in scouting players, I'd want to watch them in the flesh more than once not on You Tube, Diakhaby and Mbenza look like Platini and Tigana in their prime on You Tube. I can't believe for one minute Wagner gave the nod on the signing of these two or Hadergonaj or Sobhi if so I'd have to question his judgement. |
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Post by H7 on Sept 16, 2019 21:31:02 GMT 1
I am getting so tired of reading the same old shit on this board. It’s like people have no concept of reality. Huddersfield towns scouts could identify anyone in the world but it’s about who can Huddersfield town afford. In premier league that was essentially no one who possessed premier league experience and so we had to go to the international market which is a total gamble. Mind boggling how people can’t get their heads around this.
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Post by hypotenuse on Sept 16, 2019 21:38:47 GMT 1
OK blame no one and carry on sinking, seems a plan. Blaming doesn’t help. Blaming Edward Smith (captain of the Titanic) for sailing into an iceberg and firing him wouldn’t have saved the ship from sinking. Spending time working on an effective strategy for using the lifeboats would have helped but too many had their own agenda! |
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Post by Christ in Shades (art) on Sept 16, 2019 21:46:19 GMT 1
OK blame no one and carry on sinking, seems a plan. Blaming doesn’t help. Blaming the Edward Smith (captain of the Titanic) for sailing into an iceberg and firing him wouldn’t have saved the ship from sinking. Spending time working on an effective strategy for using the lifeboats would have helped but too many had their own agenda! Is this a comparison, sinking ship? Going down slowly? |
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Post by Chips Longhorn on Sept 16, 2019 21:48:33 GMT 1
Blaming doesn’t help. Blaming the Edward Smith (captain of the Titanic) for sailing into an iceberg and firing him wouldn’t have saved the ship from sinking. Spending time working on an effective strategy for using the lifeboats would have helped but too many had their own agenda! Is this a comparison, sinking ship? Going down slowly? Art.. Quick. You're needed. Get over to the west Brom match thread and tell us its one for the hardcore |
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