DuffMan
Iain Dunn Terrier
Posts: 541
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Post by DuffMan on Jul 14, 2023 13:00:46 GMT 1
According to Nagle, our wage bill was £10.1m last season which was less than half that of the likes Watford, Burnley, West Brom & Norwich, but quite a bit more than three of the play-off sides (Luton, Coventry & Sunderland). He covers a number of subjects in this tweet and the subsequent ones (worth a look at the questions and replies). I’m not sure they’re correct cov for example there wage bill went from 13m to 15m last season |
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incognito
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,526
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Post by incognito on Jul 14, 2023 13:14:33 GMT 1
The wages and salaries figures in club accounts refer to the entire payroll for the business.
In Town's case, the £17.81 million from 2021/22 covered an average headcount of 80 players and 157 club staff.
Admittedly the players' salaries will comprise the overwhelming bulk of the cost, but comparison between clubs would be more meaningful if they all showed the isolated cost of the First Team.
My first thought was that he may somehow have got hold of just such numbers, but, on closer inspection, some of the gaps are far too big for that to make sense.
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Post by allthefives on Jul 14, 2023 18:35:02 GMT 1
Irrespective of whether Nagle figures quoted are accurate or not. Is there a published correlation between spend on player wages and success/failure in the Championship?
We see lots of exceptions to the assumption of a correlation.
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Post by Up the Duff. on Jul 14, 2023 19:14:49 GMT 1
According to Nagle, our wage bill was £10.1m last season which was less than half that of the likes Watford, Burnley, West Brom & Norwich, but quite a bit more than three of the play-off sides (Luton, Coventry & Sunderland). He covers a number of subjects in this tweet and the subsequent ones (worth a look at the questions and replies). Bonuses of various sorts can be used to keep wages down. Surprised by Millwall, Boro and Sunderland being so low. |
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Post by softboy on Jul 16, 2023 11:58:29 GMT 1
The guy seems to be making it clear to me. Long term he could get a decent return on his money. Short term if we want to spend money then we need to generate more money, and I think this is where the American way of running hospitality businesses may work. Get families down to the ground early, make it a day out etc etc For me I still prefer a few beers in town and back for a few more after but perhaps if they put on a rock band or something In the car park with decent beer I might be tempted to go down earlier or stay later.
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Post by merseysideterrier on Jul 24, 2023 10:26:00 GMT 1
Cheers for this incognito, a really interesting read. If it is the case that the 'strict financial protocols' referred to were imposed as a result of KN's takeover rather than FFP, it'd be interesting to know why the EFL thought that would be necessary. Of course, it could just be that KN was managing fans expectations on the finance front (specifically transfers) instead. If that is, indeed, the case, I wouldn't view it as anything sinister or any sort of reflection of their sentiment towards our new owners: reading through the EFL's "Bury FC Review" it sounds as though an initial year of budget control post-takeover isn't unusual. Ultimately, even if we simply carry over last year's budget, we're still likely to be incurring an operating loss in excess of -60% as a percentage of turnover! For our new owners to go straight in with a proposal to ramp up the spending even further beyond our natural means (under the particular scrutiny of year #1) would be bordering on taking the piss. Personally speaking, I was really encouraged by Nagle's clear appreciation of the value of building foundations and infrastructure over simply throwing more money at the playing budget. Beyond what happens on the pitch over the next few years, the real challenge for Jake Edwards is going to be how to grow the business. Couldn't agree more mate, nice to see an owner taking sustainability seriously. |
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Post by detox on Jul 24, 2023 10:40:17 GMT 1
If that is, indeed, the case, I wouldn't view it as anything sinister or any sort of reflection of their sentiment towards our new owners: reading through the EFL's "Bury FC Review" it sounds as though an initial year of budget control post-takeover isn't unusual. Ultimately, even if we simply carry over last year's budget, we're still likely to be incurring an operating loss in excess of -60% as a percentage of turnover! For our new owners to go straight in with a proposal to ramp up the spending even further beyond our natural means (under the particular scrutiny of year #1) would be bordering on taking the piss. Personally speaking, I was really encouraged by Nagle's clear appreciation of the value of building foundations and infrastructure over simply throwing more money at the playing budget. Beyond what happens on the pitch over the next few years, the real challenge for Jake Edwards is going to be how to grow the business. Couldn't agree more mate, nice to see an owner taking sustainability seriously. To be fair, the KSDL HDOne project would have done exactly that. The initial plans were quite exciting and the revenues quite substantial. Development by the river, hotel, ski slope,shops,bars, restaurants and brand name outlets all looked impressive to me. Had it actually come to fruition as originally planned things could have been very different. Sadly the subsequent delays, changes and eventual abandonment of the scheme had left town in a state of paralysis whilever this project was ongoing. |
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Post by rothwellterrier on Mar 28, 2024 8:53:03 GMT 1
Latest figures out.
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Post by nicovaesen on Mar 28, 2024 9:13:00 GMT 1
Are we still skint
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Post by Ginger Ogre on Mar 28, 2024 10:19:15 GMT 1
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Sparrow
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,964
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Post by Sparrow on Mar 28, 2024 11:28:59 GMT 1
Interestingly, since the year end, the club have paid out £4.7m in Transfer fees and received £5.5m.
That's basically the transfer activity in the summer and January. The bulk of that £4.7m will have probably been in January??
I think that's the most we've spent since being relegate from the PL, excluding the £11m we had to pay for Mbenza.
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Post by Terriersmad on Mar 28, 2024 11:36:20 GMT 1
Query on player sales - presumably O'Brien and Toffolo, with additional payments to be received in future accounts, hence the low figure of £9m? |
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Dan
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,868
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Post by Dan on Mar 28, 2024 11:38:56 GMT 1
Interestingly, since the year end, the club have paid out £4.7m in Transfer fees and received £5.5m. That's basically the transfer activity in the summer and January. The bulk of that £4.7m will have probably been in January?? I think that's the most we've spent since being relegate from the PL, excluding the £11m we had to pay for Mbenza. Would seem the reported fees of Wiles £1m, Balker £1.1m, Bojan £1.2m and Healey £1.4m were fairly accurate. No idea where we got £5.5m from? Thought Camara only left for £1m-£1.5m. Unless some of that is bonuses for Forest staying up last season as part of the O'Brien/Toff deal? |
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Sparrow
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,964
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Post by Sparrow on Mar 28, 2024 11:47:58 GMT 1
Interestingly, since the year end, the club have paid out £4.7m in Transfer fees and received £5.5m. That's basically the transfer activity in the summer and January. The bulk of that £4.7m will have probably been in January?? I think that's the most we've spent since being relegate from the PL, excluding the £11m we had to pay for Mbenza. Would seem the reported fees of Wiles £1m, Balker £1.1m, Bojan £1.2m and Healey £1.4m were fairly accurate. No idea where we got £5.5m from? Thought Camara only left for £1m-£1.5m. Unless some of that is bonuses for Forest staying up last season as part of the O'Brien/Toff deal? Did we possibly get something from Connor Coady going to Leicester? Also someone did tell me we got £2m for Holmes....No idea if that's true or not?? |
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Post by Waterloo Terrier on Mar 28, 2024 11:51:48 GMT 1
Interestingly, since the year end, the club have paid out £4.7m in Transfer fees and received £5.5m. That's basically the transfer activity in the summer and January. The bulk of that £4.7m will have probably been in January?? I think that's the most we've spent since being relegate from the PL, excluding the £11m we had to pay for Mbenza. Would seem the reported fees of Wiles £1m, Balker £1.1m, Bojan £1.2m and Healey £1.4m were fairly accurate. No idea where we got £5.5m from? Thought Camara only left for £1m-£1.5m. Unless some of that is bonuses for Forest staying up last season as part of the O'Brien/Toff deal? This is going to sound daft, but aren’t West Brom still paying up £2m a season for Karlan Grant? |
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Post by Terriersmad on Mar 28, 2024 11:53:39 GMT 1
Would seem the reported fees of Wiles £1m, Balker £1.1m, Bojan £1.2m and Healey £1.4m were fairly accurate. No idea where we got £5.5m from? Thought Camara only left for £1m-£1.5m. Unless some of that is bonuses for Forest staying up last season as part of the O'Brien/Toff deal? This is going to sound daft, but aren’t West Brom still paying up £2m a season for Karlan Grant? Don't quote me on this, but I think so. |
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crux
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
[M0:0]
Posts: 4,119
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Post by crux on Mar 28, 2024 11:54:10 GMT 1
Interestingly, since the year end, the club have paid out £4.7m in Transfer fees and received £5.5m. That's basically the transfer activity in the summer and January. The bulk of that £4.7m will have probably been in January?? I think that's the most we've spent since being relegate from the PL, excluding the £11m we had to pay for Mbenza. I thought the transfers received since year end was £750K not £5.5M according to the tweets. |
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Dan
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,868
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Post by Dan on Mar 28, 2024 11:58:36 GMT 1
Interestingly, since the year end, the club have paid out £4.7m in Transfer fees and received £5.5m. That's basically the transfer activity in the summer and January. The bulk of that £4.7m will have probably been in January?? I think that's the most we've spent since being relegate from the PL, excluding the £11m we had to pay for Mbenza. I thought the transfers received since year end was £750K not £5.5M according to the tweets. You're right, it is £750k not £5.5m. That's just the Camara fee then. |
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Sparrow
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,964
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Post by Sparrow on Mar 28, 2024 11:58:38 GMT 1
Looks like if we get back to the PL we're paying DH £25m
"Included within other loans is a £25.3m of loans which incur no interest and have therefore been discounted as Financing Transactions at 5% plus base rate.
The final repayments of these loans are conditional on future events occurring. The discounting and ageing of these repayments have been based on either the earliest or most likely date that the event could occur, all of which has been deemed to be within 5 years."
It also looks like the rent we pay on Canalside has been waived and will continue to be waived
Looks like we paid £401,900 described as Key Management personnel compensation.....I'm guessing that was money paid to managers and coaches that left during the season. Schofield, Fotheringham etc
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Post by terriersyndrome on Mar 28, 2024 12:04:12 GMT 1
Would seem the reported fees of Wiles £1m, Balker £1.1m, Bojan £1.2m and Healey £1.4m were fairly accurate. No idea where we got £5.5m from? Thought Camara only left for £1m-£1.5m. Unless some of that is bonuses for Forest staying up last season as part of the O'Brien/Toff deal? Did we possibly get something from Connor Coady going to Leicester? Also someone did tell me we got £2m for Holmes....No idea if that's true or not?? I'm pretty sure we'll have got a decent sell-on for Coady. Thought Holmes left on a free? |
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Sparrow
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,964
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Post by Sparrow on Mar 28, 2024 12:06:48 GMT 1
I thought the transfers received since year end was £750K not £5.5M according to the tweets. You're right, it is £750k not £5.5m. That's just the Camara fee then. Without looking at the tweets as I can't be arsed with Twitter, I think the £750K they are quoting is the profit on transfers So approx £4.7m spent, with approx £5.5m received gives you that approx £750 figure. Which is profit In the Accounts is written as "29. Post Balance Sheet Events Following the year end the club acquired the player registrations for 5 players. The fees for those players, excluding future contingent fees, amounts to £4,710,764. The club has disposed of the registration of 10 players. The profit on disposal arising from these transactions is £758,452." So it's not £750K transfer fees received, it's profit. Now, that might actually mean that we made £750K profit from 'trading those 10 players". The initially signing those 10 players cost us a total of X. And we received Y from selling those 10 players. Giving us a £750K profit.. So if those 10 players only initially cost us £1m and we sold them for £1.75m, then that's the profit. I know that for FFP / PFS they use that when looking at profit on transfer.....Which I think is one of the reasons KN wants a full academy again as when you sell an academy player it's essentially 100% profit on the transfer |
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Post by benhomly on Mar 28, 2024 12:07:27 GMT 1
Looks like if we get back to the PL we're paying DH £25m"Included within other loans is a £25.3m of loans which incur no interest and have therefore been discounted as Financing Transactions at 5% plus base rate. The final repayments of these loans are conditional on future events occurring. The discounting and ageing of these repayments have been based on either the earliest or most likely date that the event could occur, all of which has been deemed to be within 5 years." It also looks like the rent we pay on Canalside has been waived and will continue to be waived Looks like we paid £401,900 described as Key Management personnel compensation.....I'm guessing that was money paid to managers and coaches that left during the season. Schofield, Fotheringham etc I hope for his sake Deano hasn't gone on a spending spree in anticipation  |
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incognito
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,526
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Post by incognito on Mar 28, 2024 12:16:40 GMT 1
You're right, it is £750k not £5.5m. That's just the Camara fee then. Without looking at the tweets as I can't be arsed with Twitter, I think the £750K they are quoting is the profit on transfers So approx £4.7m spent, with approx £5.5m received gives you that approx £750 figure. Which is profit In the Accounts is written as "29. Post Balance Sheet Events Following the year end the club acquired the player registrations for 5 players. The fees for those players, excluding future contingent fees, amounts to £4,710,764. The club has disposed of the registration of 10 players. The profit on disposal arrising from these transactions is £758,452." So it's not £750K transfer fees received, it's profit. Profit on transfers in this context is transfer fee received minus the player's book value. For an academy product it's almost pure profit as the book value will be negligible. |
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Post by waggers on Mar 28, 2024 12:30:03 GMT 1
Without looking at the tweets as I can't be arsed with Twitter, I think the £750K they are quoting is the profit on transfers So approx £4.7m spent, with approx £5.5m received gives you that approx £750 figure. Which is profit In the Accounts is written as "29. Post Balance Sheet Events Following the year end the club acquired the player registrations for 5 players. The fees for those players, excluding future contingent fees, amounts to £4,710,764. The club has disposed of the registration of 10 players. The profit on disposal arrising from these transactions is £758,452." So it's not £750K transfer fees received, it's profit. Profit on transfers in this context is transfer fee received minus the player's book value. For an academy product it's almost pure profit as the book value will be negligible. This is one of the ways Chelsea plan to dodge points deductions. |
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Sparrow
Frank Worthington Terrier
Posts: 1,964
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Post by Sparrow on Mar 28, 2024 12:46:27 GMT 1
Profit on transfers in this context is transfer fee received minus the player's book value. For an academy product it's almost pure profit as the book value will be negligible. This is one of the ways Chelsea plan to dodge points deductions. In a way yes. In the Premier League PSR is getting replaced by Squad Cost Control Ratio measures UEFA have implemented a Squad Cost Ratio, which it is assumed the PL will follow. UEFA Squad Cost Ratio CalculationA club’s squad cost ratio is calculated as the sum of: Wages of players and head coaches Player amortisation and impairment Termination payments for players and head coaches Agents’ fees and cost of other intermediaries Divided by the sum of: Operating revenue (adjusted for fair value, if required) Profit from player sales Other transfer income Premier League Squad Cost RatioAlthough the Premier League has not officially stated how much it will apply as its cap, it has been widely reported that this will be 85% of a club’s earnings (from football activities), though this will be reduced to 70% for clubs playing in UEFA competitions, as they benefit from higher revenue. As an example, if a club’s total earnings are £400m and it is playing in a UEFA competition, then its spending cap for the relevant expenses referred to above would be £280m, i.e. £400m x 70%. The above is taken from an article by Swiss Ramble posted a couple of days ago |
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Post by utttrooper on Mar 28, 2024 13:03:47 GMT 1
Steven Chicken has released an article on it of anyone is interested
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Post by Teddington Ted on Mar 28, 2024 14:09:59 GMT 1
WEarS thE rHoDES mOOneY gonn?!?
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Post by Metch on Mar 28, 2024 14:22:08 GMT 1
Accounts are upto summer 2023 so ignore recent dealings
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Post by runner76 on Mar 28, 2024 14:26:25 GMT 1
WEarS thE rHoDES mOOneY gonn?!? N0 Iddeea - Wunda if ennyone el5E Knows?. |
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Post by Gag N Bone Man on Mar 28, 2024 14:28:58 GMT 1
This is going to sound daft, but aren’t West Brom still paying up £2m a season for Karlan Grant? Don't quote me on this, but I think so. you're not the boss of me |
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