goodbet
Andy Booth Terrier
Posts: 3,888
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Post by goodbet on Jul 12, 2021 15:44:18 GMT 1
I think that you got the high point completely wrong. We may have led the world up to the start of the first world war it became obvious that the lead had passed or was passing on to the US after it. The second world war was when the yanks really stuck the boot in when we had to pay through the nose for the help and assistance that we needed. They also too the opportunity to grab some of our industries and our overseas investments and made us give them access to sell in to the commonwealth countries which we had managed to keep them out of until then. Germany and Japan got investment from the US but we had to keep paying war debts, I think until the 1970's. The US had us under the cosh and kept us there and now they have more important business to do than to bother helping us out trying to get a trade deal together. We got ourselves in to this position so we can't blame them for not going out of their way to help us out. So much for the special relationship, I guess we probably were not too helpful to them as they grew and developed as a nation and boy have they ensured that they made us pay ever since. Convenient bits of history to quote. Should we not have stood up for Poland & the rest of Europe (humanity) in the face of threats from genocidal maniacs and their supporting dictatorships? I think you have taken my comments on the some one else's assumption that we were "until the 1950's the greatest nation of peoples the world had ever known". totally out of context. 1) I will leave it up to everyone to make their own mind up if we were ever so great. 2) I only pointed out that our high point was not in the 1950's but much earlier. My comments never suggested anything about why we should or should not have got involved in the wars just that they marked out our phasing away from the limelight so to speak. For what it is worth I believe that we got involved in these wars because it has been the UK's European foreign policy mandate that we did not let any single country dominate the continent. This was all that was needed to decide to help the French in the first world war. This was probably why we joined the Second World War but having a straight choice of maintaining a civilised standard against downright evil was probably not that clear at the start. This is off-topic so I will not respond on this again here.
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yorik
Tom Cowan Terrier
Posts: 760
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Post by yorik on Jul 12, 2021 16:15:03 GMT 1
What's this got to do with football?
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Post by westislandterrier on Jul 12, 2021 16:23:34 GMT 1
So there we have it and The European Championship 2020(1) is at an end. Congratulations to the winners Italy and Commiserations to England who had a fine tournament and only succumbed to the lottery of penalties. My neighbours (the guys) are originally from England and on a bit of a downer but also onwards and upwards and all that spirit etc. It would have been nice to see Huddersfield and Yorkshire party but not to be (though I’d get a reprimand from some up here for saying that). Anyway my point is.. while it’s dramatic to see a match decided on the night, for huge competitions like that or say the World Cup, would it be better to have one replay before penalties ? I realise the footy calendar is log jammed (only 2 weeks and 5 days till Town start in The League Cup) and Dumbarton have already started their competitive fixtures on Saturday but had to forfeit a 0-3 loss to St. Mirren due to a Covid issue, but surely a tournament like The Euros should have one replay before penalties, but there again I suppose everyone knows the set up prior to the start of the tournament.
Glad that Huddersfield Town are awesome at spot kick shoot outs though !
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Post by sabailand on Jul 12, 2021 16:35:06 GMT 1
Been a few comments(not on here)about Gareth southgate getting a knighthood, now i think Gareth southgate has been a great ambassador and a genuinely decent person but this knighthood business does get a bit silly, i think hes had a great tournament but he hasn't actually won anything, lots of people appear to be talked up by others merely for being pretty good at their job, being pretty good at your job and being a decent person shouldn't necessarily earn you a knighthood.
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Post by ilsonterrier on Jul 12, 2021 16:35:42 GMT 1
Been a great tournament, seen some cracking games, great to see fans in grounds and England did better than I’d expected getting to the final. Time to focus now on my main team.UTT. Was talking to my sons after the game and we were comparing it to watching Town in penalty shootouts and play off games. I love England and im gutted we didn't win it, but we all said the same thing.. watching those big games, the stress levels, the nerves, the ecstasy of victory and the trauma of defeat doesn't even begin to compare between Town and England. I dont think its even a tenth. Exactly this. When we were at the Croatia game,we cheered when Sterling scored, but I turned to my son and said "it's not Town though is it"? He agreed.
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Post by bogart on Jul 12, 2021 16:38:24 GMT 1
No replay thanks if that is the best on offer.
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Post by sabailand on Jul 12, 2021 16:41:19 GMT 1
So there we have it and The European Championship 2020(1) is at an end. Congratulations to the winners Italy and Commiserations to England who had a fine tournament and only succumbed to the lottery of penalties. My neighbours (the guys) are originally from England and on a bit of a downer but also onwards and upwards and all that spirit etc. It would have been nice to see Huddersfield and Yorkshire party but not to be (though I’d get a reprimand from some up here for saying that). Anyway my point is.. while it’s dramatic to see a match decided on the night, for huge competitions like that or say the World Cup, would it be better to have one replay before penalties ? I realise the footy calendar is log jammed (only 2 weeks and 5 days till Town start in The League Cup) and Dumbarton have already started their competitive fixtures on Saturday but had to forfeit a 0-3 loss to St. Mirren due to a Covid issue, but surely a tournament like The Euros should have one replay before penalties, but there again I suppose everyone knows the set up prior to the start of the tournament. Glad that Huddersfield Town are awesome at spot kick shoot outs though ! I understand the sentiment for such a big game but i dont think replays will be substituted for pens any time soon, its understandable people think its a shame when big games have to go to pens but town fans cant complain about the issue generally, pens have seen us go from the bottom tier right to the premier league.
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Post by galpharm2400 on Jul 12, 2021 17:15:19 GMT 1
No replay thanks if that is the best on offer. Extra time with two impotent teams was enough for me. A replay would have seen sterling dropped and Henderson starting. Watching Kane playing centre forward from centre midfield on his own would have been too much for me.
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Post by Headless Chicken on Jul 12, 2021 17:26:13 GMT 1
Been a few comments(not on here)about Gareth southgate getting a knighthood, now i think Gareth southgate has been a great ambassador and a genuinely decent person but this knighthood business does get a bit silly, i think hes had a great tournament but he hasn't actually won anything, lots of people appear to be talked up by others merely for being pretty good at their job, being pretty good at your job and being a decent person shouldn't necessarily earn you a knighthood. Agree. However, Southgate getting a knighthood is only equally as daft as the armchair football managers who think, with apparent 100% certainty, they know better.
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jul 12, 2021 17:48:16 GMT 1
Your maths is out....i walked down Wembley way v Germany and it was packed with people not going to the game....looked like 99% wankers to me. You would have felt at home then. How very droll. Have you nothing better to do?
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iangreaves
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
[M0:0]
Posts: 4,011
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Post by iangreaves on Jul 12, 2021 17:53:07 GMT 1
Been a few comments(not on here)about Gareth southgate getting a knighthood, now i think Gareth southgate has been a great ambassador and a genuinely decent person but this knighthood business does get a bit silly, i think hes had a great tournament but he hasn't actually won anything, lots of people appear to be talked up by others merely for being pretty good at their job, being pretty good at your job and being a decent person shouldn't necessarily earn you a knighthood. The honours system and the House of Lords need scrapping. Too many have effectively bought their way to a title.
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Post by herefordaway on Jul 12, 2021 18:13:15 GMT 1
Deservedly beaten last night but hope for future with the young players we have.Felt sorry for Foden not getting more of a chance,although he was out injured last night
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Post by arry11 on Jul 12, 2021 18:26:35 GMT 1
You would have felt at home then. How very droll. Have you nothing better to do? Yes think i might try teaching my granny how to suck eggs
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2021 18:27:10 GMT 1
Didn’t want to post about the final yesterday, because it was all a bit raw - but here, for what it’s worth, are my thoughts about the tournament from an England point-of-view.
Southgate made some poor decisions last night; I don’t think many would disagree. Taking off Rice, leaving it so late to bring on Grealish, bringing on Rashford and Sancho so late and above all - for me - not pulling 19-year old Saka out of the firing line, whether the plan for him to take that pen was made before the game, or as extra time drew to a close.
But as gutted as I am, I feel that he ‘d earned the right to make those calls, even if they didn’t come off. I disagreed with some decisions earlier in the tournament, but he played a blinder up until half-time in the final, and showed me up for the footie idiot that I am. Despite everything, we came a couple of penalty kicks away from winning it against - let’s be brutally honest - the best team in the tournament (just!).
I really hope that the people calling for his head are just being knee-jerky because the emotions are still a bit raw - fact is, IMHO, he’s done brilliantly, any way you look at it. And he’s still learning; yes, it’d be good if he didn’t make mistakes that cost us while he learns, but look at Fabio Capello’s reign - he wasn’t learning on the job, he was just a hugely experienced club manager who did badly in an unfamiliar role. Maybe club management and managing an International team are two different skill-sets, I don’t know.
I was opposed to him taking over in the first place - but by golly, I’ve eaten some humble pie. Would a “big club” hire him? Who cares - he’s done brilliantly, and been an absolute statesman to boot. I’ve never, ever felt prouder of my national team.
Moving forward - maybe a more attack-minded coach to counteract our old pal Chris Powell? I don’t have the answers, but from a personal point-of-view - I’ve not connected with an England team since ’96, and I’m now the most optimistic I’ve ever been about them.
Just wish the World Cup wasn’t in fecking Qatar!
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Post by Ox Terrier on Jul 12, 2021 18:36:58 GMT 1
Didn’t want to post about the final yesterday, because it was all a bit raw - but here, for what it’s worth, are my thoughts about the tournament from an England point-of-view. Southgate made some poor decisions last night; I don’t think many would disagree. Taking off Rice, leaving it so late to bring on Grealish, bringing on Rashford and Sancho so late and above all - for me - not pulling 19-year old Saka out of the firing line, whether the plan for him to take that pen was made before the game, or as extra time drew to a close. But as gutted as I am, I feel that he ‘d earned the right to make those calls, even if they didn’t come off. I disagreed with some decisions earlier in the tournament, but he played a blinder up until half-time in the final, and showed me up for the footie idiot that I am. Despite everything, we came a couple of penalty kicks away from winning it against - let’s be brutally honest - the best team in the tournament (just!). I really hope that the people calling for his head are just being knee-jerky because the emotions are still a bit raw - fact is, IMHO, he’s done brilliantly, any way you look at it. And he’s still learning; yes, it’d be good if he didn’t make mistakes that cost us while he learns, but look at Fabio Capello’s reign - he wasn’t learning on the job, he was just a hugely experienced club manager who did badly in an unfamiliar role. Maybe club management and managing an International team are two different skill-sets, I don’t know. I was opposed to him taking over in the first place - but by golly, I’ve eaten some humble pie. Would a “big club” hire him? Who cares - he’s done brilliantly, and been an absolute statesman to boot. I’ve never, ever felt prouder of my national team. Moving forward - maybe a more attack-minded coach to counteract our old pal Chris Powell? I don’t have the answers, but from a personal point-of-view - I’ve not connected with an England team since ’96, and I’m now the most optimistic I’ve ever been about them. Just wish the World Cup wasn’t in fecking Qatar! It’s going to feel mighty strange watching the World Cup between 18 Nov - 18 Dec. No watching from beer gardens I wouldn’t have thought!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2021 18:40:08 GMT 1
It’s going to feel mighty strange watching the World Cup between 18 Nov - 18 Dec.No watching from beer gardens I wouldn’t have thought! As a (thankfully!) ex-smoker, I've spent time in some very cold beer gardens - water off a duck's back!
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jim100
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,555
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Post by jim100 on Jul 12, 2021 18:45:01 GMT 1
Shades of the Croatia game in world Cup 2018. Started brightly but faded until we were camped just outside our own penalty area.
I still believe that Saint Gareth will lead us to glory but he just needs to be a brave in the big games. We have the players just need the belief. Based on all the off field shenanigans I'm not sure playing at Wembley helped us. Two very cagey performances in the big games and the Germany game could well have ended up the same. I think it will suit us better in Quatar. Onwards!
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jim100
Jimmy Nicholson Terrier
Posts: 1,555
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Post by jim100 on Jul 12, 2021 18:45:50 GMT 1
Didn’t want to post about the final yesterday, because it was all a bit raw - but here, for what it’s worth, are my thoughts about the tournament from an England point-of-view. Southgate made some poor decisions last night; I don’t think many would disagree. Taking off Rice, leaving it so late to bring on Grealish, bringing on Rashford and Sancho so late and above all - for me - not pulling 19-year old Saka out of the firing line, whether the plan for him to take that pen was made before the game, or as extra time drew to a close. But as gutted as I am, I feel that he ‘d earned the right to make those calls, even if they didn’t come off. I disagreed with some decisions earlier in the tournament, but he played a blinder up until half-time in the final, and showed me up for the footie idiot that I am. Despite everything, we came a couple of penalty kicks away from winning it against - let’s be brutally honest - the best team in the tournament (just!). I really hope that the people calling for his head are just being knee-jerky because the emotions are still a bit raw - fact is, IMHO, he’s done brilliantly, any way you look at it. And he’s still learning; yes, it’d be good if he didn’t make mistakes that cost us while he learns, but look at Fabio Capello’s reign - he wasn’t learning on the job, he was just a hugely experienced club manager who did badly in an unfamiliar role. Maybe club management and managing an International team are two different skill-sets, I don’t know. I was opposed to him taking over in the first place - but by golly, I’ve eaten some humble pie. Would a “big club” hire him? Who cares - he’s done brilliantly, and been an absolute statesman to boot. I’ve never, ever felt prouder of my national team. Moving forward - maybe a more attack-minded coach to counteract our old pal Chris Powell? I don’t have the answers, but from a personal point-of-view - I’ve not connected with an England team since ’96, and I’m now the most optimistic I’ve ever been about them. Just wish the World Cup wasn’t in fecking Qatar! It’s going to feel mighty strange watching the World Cup between 18 Nov - 18 Dec. No watching from beer gardens I wouldn’t have thought! Knowing our climate it may well be warmer!
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Post by alexdire on Jul 12, 2021 18:49:49 GMT 1
Just seen some videos on Reddit of England fans that have made me feel sick to my stomach. The irony is that these people who are sending monkey emojis are the closest things to apes you’ll ever see. Did anybody get a video of the 20-30 South Asians breaking in through the merchandising stall by gate F? I saw it but didn't film it. Or have they just concentrated on what happened to them once they'd broken in and assaulted the stewards. I've never seen anything like it. 20-30 lads jumping over the counter as the young lasses tried to get the shutters down.
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Post by kennyk2 on Jul 12, 2021 19:05:36 GMT 1
Having had a while to mull over things since last night I have a few points.
1. We sat very deep at the end of the first half and for 25 minutes of the second. I don't think there was much we could do about it as Italy were playing really well. However, despite a great save from Pickford they really didn't come close until the goal and certainly not after it. England defended well.
2. Italy tired badly which let England back in, in the later second half and during extra time when they really should have made better chances. The Kane cross that parted Stones' hair for example. The surprising thing was that, as with the Spain game, Italy were content just to shut up shop in extra time. Were they really playing for penalties?
3. The constant fouling by the Italians in extra time probably showed how tired they were. There were some really poor fouls one after the other aimed at totally shutting down England's play. The foul on Grealish would have been a red in the PL, whether he got the ball to not. These Italian infringements in the last 10 minutes were with very little risk... you may lose a man to a red card for a matter of minutes.
4. Fine margins. If Pickford's save before their goal had hit the post two inches to either side, I don't think the Italian goalscorer would have reached it. Changed the game of course. The second game-changer... Rashford's miss which was a poor one, he'd already sent the goalie the wrong way. Again four inches difference and this would have gone in off the post. I think his reaction to the miss may have un-nerved the following penalty takers.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2021 19:38:36 GMT 1
Convenient bits of history to quote. Should we not have stood up for Poland & the rest of Europe (humanity) in the face of threats from genocidal maniacs and their supporting dictatorships? That's not the point being made at all. So is the point that Germany & Japan were being rewarded for supporting USA in development, I don't think so? Did the UK not have the pride to stand up, without demanding financial or strategic support? If Pearl Harbour has been earlier would USA have been looking for our support? So, what is the point being made?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2021 19:50:58 GMT 1
Convenient bits of history to quote. Should we not have stood up for Poland & the rest of Europe (humanity) in the face of threats from genocidal maniacs and their supporting dictatorships? I think you have taken my comments on the some one else's assumption that we were "until the 1950's the greatest nation of peoples the world had ever known". totally out of context. 1) I will leave it up to everyone to make their own mind up if we were ever so great. 2) I only pointed out that our high point was not in the 1950's but much earlier. My comments never suggested anything about why we should or should not have got involved in the wars just that they marked out our phasing away from the limelight so to speak. For what it is worth I believe that we got involved in these wars because it has been the UK's European foreign policy mandate that we did not let any single country dominate the continent. This was all that was needed to decide to help the French in the first world war. This was probably why we joined the Second World War but having a straight choice of maintaining a civilised standard against downright evil was probably not that clear at the start. This is off-topic so I will not respond on this again here. The financial consequences of the UK paying it's own way & debts after the 2nd World War is not what has undermined the UK status as you imply, & as someone who rarely likes what Otium states I am entitled to agree with him when disagreement with his point appears wrong to me!
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jul 12, 2021 20:03:59 GMT 1
How very droll. Have you nothing better to do? Yes think i might try teaching my granny how to suck eggs In return she might help you with your reading and writing.
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jul 12, 2021 20:12:38 GMT 1
Went upto the pub for the final last night. Thought it would be good to watch the match with a bit of an atmosphere and a few pints. Bad move , a group of six blokes who'd obviously been in there since lunchtime continually singing "You can stick your curly pasta up your arse" (I'll give them their due though , they did change it to cannelloni later on , two women donned in ill fitting England tops sat under the telly all night, never watched any of the game but did join in the curly pasta song. Another woman in an England rugby union shirt who cheered when Italy scored their first penalty. I went out wanting England to win , in the end I wasn't really upset they'd lost. On the way home our lass said I can tell you're not bothered , but roll on Southport for the weekend eh.. Aye , roll on Southport🙂 I was at England v Germany.....wankers in the hotel...wankers all around me in the stadium. Even bigger wankers outside the stadium. I could have gone to the semi but the experience put me off so i watched at home...like last night. Much more clarity. “A group experience takes place on a lower level of consciousness than the experience of an individual" Carl Jung.
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Post by sapphireblue on Jul 12, 2021 20:49:08 GMT 1
Just seen some videos on Reddit of England fans that have made me feel sick to my stomach. The irony is that these people who are sending monkey emojis are the closest things to apes you’ll ever see. Did anybody get a video of the 20-30 South Asians breaking in through the merchandising stall by gate F? I saw it but didn't film it. Or have they just concentrated on what happened to them once they'd broken in and assaulted the stewards. I've never seen anything like it. 20-30 lads jumping over the counter as the young lasses tried to get the shutters down. We've seen lots of footage of lots of wankers behaving badly last night. You are the first to bring ethnicity into the discussion. Shame on you.
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jul 12, 2021 21:07:06 GMT 1
You have to take the 55 years without a final out of it and look at it as a singular tournament. England over achieved in getting to the final? Absolute rubbish! Did they exceed expectation? Not for me. Look at the squad we have, look at the squad value of every team in the tournament and we'd be top of the pile by a distance. It's like saying Man City over achieved in getting to an F.A. cup final while beating Burnley, Southampton and Spurs en route. Unfortunately we played that game like a plucky underdog against one of the giants of the game, and if you play with a losers mentality you will invariably lose. Before the tournament most people would have said France had the strongest squad. I’d have had Portugal and Belgium ahead of us too. If you rank squads on how many Champions Leagues or international tournaments the players had won there would be at least 5 with more than ours. It was frustrating to watch us play so defensively but Southgate obviously thought our defence was too weak to win the tournament without putting extra defensive minded players in - no coincidence that Rice, Phillips etc outperformed when we were set up to be ultra solid. We might have won if we’d been braver or we might have been knocked out earlier, but beaten finalists exceeded what most neutrals would have expected from England imo. Agree with the underdog sentiment last night though, even with the team we had out there was no need to sit so deep and stop going forward so early, it was asking for trouble. Really? The bookies had England favourites until 3 weeks before kick off.
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Post by sapphireblue on Jul 12, 2021 21:11:34 GMT 1
Before the tournament most people would have said France had the strongest squad. I’d have had Portugal and Belgium ahead of us too. If you rank squads on how many Champions Leagues or international tournaments the players had won there would be at least 5 with more than ours. It was frustrating to watch us play so defensively but Southgate obviously thought our defence was too weak to win the tournament without putting extra defensive minded players in - no coincidence that Rice, Phillips etc outperformed when we were set up to be ultra solid. We might have won if we’d been braver or we might have been knocked out earlier, but beaten finalists exceeded what most neutrals would have expected from England imo. Agree with the underdog sentiment last night though, even with the team we had out there was no need to sit so deep and stop going forward so early, it was asking for trouble. Really? The bookies had England favourites until 3 weeks before kick off. Yes they did, but everyone thought we were too short in the odds. Did anyone on here predict an Italy win? (before a ball was kicked and not in a list of possible winners)
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jul 12, 2021 21:12:06 GMT 1
Convenient bits of history to quote. Should we not have stood up for Poland & the rest of Europe (humanity) in the face of threats from genocidal maniacs and their supporting dictatorships? I think you have taken my comments on the some one else's assumption that we were "until the 1950's the greatest nation of peoples the world had ever known". totally out of context. 1) I will leave it up to everyone to make their own mind up if we were ever so great. 2) I only pointed out that our high point was not in the 1950's but much earlier. My comments never suggested anything about why we should or should not have got involved in the wars just that they marked out our phasing away from the limelight so to speak. For what it is worth I believe that we got involved in these wars because it has been the UK's European foreign policy mandate that we did not let any single country dominate the continent. This was all that was needed to decide to help the French in the first world war. This was probably why we joined the Second World War but having a straight choice of maintaining a civilised standard against downright evil was probably not that clear at the start. This is off-topic so I will not respond on this again here. Many great historians see the Edwardian era the start of the slide. World War 1 exarcebated and speeded up the process bankrupting the country and decimating the male youth. I have always thought the moral, social and cultural declines came with the rise of the individual in the 50's and 60's...that was my point.
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Post by otium (EPBS) on Jul 12, 2021 21:15:39 GMT 1
Really? The bookies had England favourites until 3 weeks before kick off. Yes they did, but everyone thought we were too short in the odds. Did anyone on here predict an Italy win? (before a ball was kicked and not in a list of possible winners) I know i did....i had us at 10/1.....about the same as Italy. I knew Spain were shot....divided squad, run of poor results, no Real Madrid players. I posted on this thread the winner would come from the big 5 and only Denmark of the outsiders were a live prospect. Its like the Premier league now....all so predictable. Graham Taylor took Watford from bottom of the league to the 1 st Division (Prem) in 5 years.....you will never see that kind of thing again.
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Post by sapphireblue on Jul 12, 2021 21:20:46 GMT 1
Yes they did, but everyone thought we were too short in the odds. Did anyone on here predict an Italy win? (before a ball was kicked and not in a list of possible winners) I know i did....i had us at 10/1.....about the same as Italy. I knew Spain were shot....divided squad, run of poor results, no Real Madrid players. I posted on this thread the winner would come from the big 5 and only Denmark of the outsiders were a live prospect. Its like the Premier league now....all so predictable. Graham Taylor took Watford from bottom of the league to the 1 st Division (Prem) in 5 years.....you will never see that kind of thing again. Hopefully we both will, oti.
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