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Post by townarentbest on Mar 10, 2023 15:52:40 GMT 1
Seen a suggestion on here, a few times, that Dean may allow the club to go into administration and then buy it back. Would this be allowed by the FA/Football league? And do we think he’d pass the fit and proper test if he tried it? Have a read and make your own judgement...I think the answer is YES, and would even be yes if he was now majority owner with his name as the controlling party and the club suffered an insolvency event whilst he's in charge! www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/efl-regulations/appendix-3-owners-and-directors-test/ |
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iangreaves
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Post by iangreaves on Mar 10, 2023 15:57:43 GMT 1
For all those saying DH wanting all the money out, right now the only ones wanting all the money are the PURE Admins, if DH pays this then he will lose all the money PH paid to him during his time in charge this is not going to happen. Right now I see 4 possible outcomes 1, we stay up, new owners come in clear everything up we move on. (Most unlikely) 2, admin in next couple of weeks to clear the mess up, DH buys back of admins and completes a sale in the summer. 3, PURE admins agree to deal on the table, we stay up and new deal agreed with new owners. 4, PURE a admins agree to deal on the table, we go down a new buyer comes in or DH continues to fund until one is found. 2 is most likely today, 4 has legs still but PURE admins need to come to the table. Surely as a 25% stakeholder he wouldn't be allowed to put the club into admin (which is basically an admission of financial mismanagement at all levels) and then be able to buy it back for some ridiculous rate? That seems like an obvious financial loophole that would have been closed years ago? Happens quite regularly. Google pre-pack administration. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2023 16:03:53 GMT 1
Surely as a 25% stakeholder he wouldn't be allowed to put the club into admin (which is basically an admission of financial mismanagement at all levels) and then be able to buy it back for some ridiculous rate? That seems like an obvious financial loophole that would have been closed years ago? Happens quite regularly. Google pre-pack administration. it is all possible and happens all the time, however currently it would not be DH putting the club into Administration, him stopping the funding would put us into Administration but not him as 25% shareholder doing it. PURE Admins would be the ones responsable for any Administration of HTAFC by calling in there debt in full. |
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Post by Gag N Bone Man on Mar 10, 2023 16:05:01 GMT 1
Seen a suggestion on here, a few times, that Dean may allow the club to go into administration and then buy it back. Would this be allowed by the FA/Football league? And do we think he’d pass the fit and proper test if he tried it? Have a read and make your own judgement...I think the answer is YES, and would even be yes if he was now majority owner with his name as the controlling party and the club suffered an insolvency event whilst he's in charge! www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/efl-regulations/appendix-3-owners-and-directors-test/I find it quite surprising that someone owning a 25% share of a club that goes into administration can then buy that club to take it out of that administration, but it appears they can. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 10, 2023 16:05:33 GMT 1
Royally fucked by people who claim to be fans? Hes putting £100,000 a week into a club he doesnt even own to keep it functioning, and knowing in all likelihood he'll never see it again. And that is royally fucking 'us'....the fans who stump up our £250 a year?? the 'didnt expect the money back' line is so tired. Of course he didnt expect the money back! The only way the club would ever be able to pay him it back would be if we got to the prem,, and I dont know about you but I never expected that to happen either! If you give a fiver to a brassic mate so he can get something to eat,, but on top of the sandwich he also buys a scratch card and wins £1m...I think most people would probably expect the guy to repay you the fiver at least,,even if you weren't expected it back when you gave him it.! Again flawed. He chose not to take back his investment and instead spent 10s and 10s of millions on absolute shit. Only then when the bubble burst and we were going down with a squad full of crap did he set up a deal to take back his money from the parachute payments. We then ended up with nothing as the players he signed were worthless and he sold the club to a guy without a pot to piss in. Every one of those are actions he took without a gun to his head. We are where we are as a result of his rank bad decisions. Not because of the fans 250 quid a year. No youre wrong. the bubble hadnt burst when he agreed the deal to sell to PH. We were in the PL...a month after meeting him we were 15th in the table and we'd been playing much better than the points at that stage suggested. When it turned out the players we had signed were shit and we did go down,,,obviously badly effecting the clubs finances...he didnt take his money back and as its turned out never will I expect. So you'll get your gift like you expect from him... sorry, like you expect THE CLUB to get from him. ( dont want you thinking that Im saying you yourself are getting the money!) We are where we are because of bad decisions.. some his.. some the people he employs. Just not fair is it? He should have known to make good decisions instead. |
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Post by space hardware on Mar 10, 2023 16:13:00 GMT 1
Again flawed. He chose not to take back his investment and instead spent 10s and 10s of millions on absolute shit. Only then when the bubble burst and we were going down with a squad full of crap did he set up a deal to take back his money from the parachute payments. We then ended up with nothing as the players he signed were worthless and he sold the club to a guy without a pot to piss in. Every one of those are actions he took without a gun to his head. We are where we are as a result of his rank bad decisions. Not because of the fans 250 quid a year. No youre wrong. the bubble hadnt burst when he agreed the deal to sell to PH. We were in the PL...a month after meeting him we were 15th in the table and we'd been playing much better than the points at that stage suggested. When it turned out the players we had signed were shit and we did go down,,,obviously badly effecting the clubs finances...he didnt take his money back and as its turned out never will I expect. So you'll get your gift like you expect from him... sorry, like you expect THE CLUB to get from him. ( dont want you thinking that Im saying you yourself are getting the money!) We are where we are because of bad decisions.. some his.. some the people he employs. Just not fair is it? He should have known to make good decisions instead. Really? I thought the deal was done at the end of the 2018/19 season? |
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goodbet
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Post by goodbet on Mar 10, 2023 16:14:47 GMT 1
It would be nice to know what the stance of the three different parties are taking and how much each of them are wanting from whatever any buyout may provide.
Based on the last agreement Dean made it will be wrapped up in NDA's, but they will come out in to the open eventually.
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goodbet
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Post by goodbet on Mar 10, 2023 16:18:43 GMT 1
I find it quite surprising that someone owning a 25% share of a club that goes into administration can then buy that club to take it out of that administration, but it appears they can. Once a business goes in to administration they should sell any going concern to the highest bidder whomever that may be. It could be Dean or someone from the old Bury club! |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 10, 2023 16:20:08 GMT 1
No youre wrong. the bubble hadnt burst when he agreed the deal to sell to PH. We were in the PL...a month after meeting him we were 15th in the table and we'd been playing much better than the points at that stage suggested. When it turned out the players we had signed were shit and we did go down,,,obviously badly effecting the clubs finances...he didnt take his money back and as its turned out never will I expect. So you'll get your gift like you expect from him... sorry, like you expect THE CLUB to get from him. ( dont want you thinking that Im saying you yourself are getting the money!) We are where we are because of bad decisions.. some his.. some the people he employs. Just not fair is it? He should have known to make good decisions instead. Really? I thought the deal was done at the end of the 2018/19 season? Thats when it was completed. ie the club was transferred over to PH. Will have been negotiated long before that. They first met to start that process whilst Hoyle was in hospital in the autumn. then you'd have the fit and proper tests to pass, the legal work etc |
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Post by detox on Mar 10, 2023 16:22:05 GMT 1
Happens quite regularly. Google pre-pack administration. it is all possible and happens all the time, however currently it would not be DH putting the club into Administration, him stopping the funding would put us into Administration but not him as 25% shareholder doing it. PURE Admins would be the ones responsable for any Administration of HTAFC by calling in there debt in full. Am I missing something here ? The biggest creditor of HTAFC is DH, with £35m in loans. What would the point be in calling in the loans and putting the club into Adminstration ? How does he actually benefit from that... he could just as easily get the club to take Bank Loans out to repay himself, and call it a day..couldn't he ? |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 10, 2023 16:25:34 GMT 1
it is all possible and happens all the time, however currently it would not be DH putting the club into Administration, him stopping the funding would put us into Administration but not him as 25% shareholder doing it. PURE Admins would be the ones responsable for any Administration of HTAFC by calling in there debt in full. Am I missing something here ? The biggest creditor of HTAFC is DH, with £35m in loans. What would the point be in calling in the loans and putting the club into Adminstration ? How does he actually benefit from that... he could just as easily get the club to take Bank Loans out to repay himself, and call it a day..couldn't he ? Thats what I think. If he put Town into admin, the most he'd get is 10p in the £, and probably nowhere near that... Im waiting for a payment for an administrator myself and Ill be getting 4p in the £, if it ever happens. Ive already been waiting 3 years! |
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Post by detox on Mar 10, 2023 16:37:05 GMT 1
Am I missing something here ? The biggest creditor of HTAFC is DH, with £35m in loans. What would the point be in calling in the loans and putting the club into Adminstration ? How does he actually benefit from that... he could just as easily get the club to take Bank Loans out to repay himself, and call it a day..couldn't he ? Thats what I think. If he put Town into admin, the most he'd get is 10p in the £, and probably nowhere near that... Im waiting for a payment for an administrator myself and Ill be getting 4p in the £, if it ever happens. Ive already been waiting 3 years! Absolutely...the 'assets' at the club don't amount to much and any potential buyer isn't going to settle DH's debts for him are they..it'll be a buyers market for sure..he'll get naff all. His problem might be no Banks will loan the club £35m anyway..what security is there..? JSS, no...Canalside...no, players..no, Cash in the bank..no, Championship club...no.
it's akin to a sole trader who's put all his money into a failing business then going bust in the hope he'll get all his money back.
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Sparrow
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Post by Sparrow on Mar 10, 2023 16:42:25 GMT 1
Again flawed. He chose not to take back his investment and instead spent 10s and 10s of millions on absolute shit. Only then when the bubble burst and we were going down with a squad full of crap did he set up a deal to take back his money from the parachute payments. We then ended up with nothing as the players he signed were worthless and he sold the club to a guy without a pot to piss in. Every one of those are actions he took without a gun to his head. We are where we are as a result of his rank bad decisions. Not because of the fans 250 quid a year. No youre wrong. the bubble hadnt burst when he agreed the deal to sell to PH. We were in the PL...a month after meeting him we were 15th in the table and we'd been playing much better than the points at that stage suggested. When it turned out the players we had signed were shit and we did go down,,,obviously badly effecting the clubs finances...he didnt take his money back and as its turned out never will I expect. So you'll get your gift like you expect from him... sorry, like you expect THE CLUB to get from him. ( dont want you thinking that Im saying you yourself are getting the money!) We are where we are because of bad decisions.. some his.. some the people he employs. Just not fair is it? He should have known to make good decisions instead. Hello again my old friend :-) The first bit is most likely correct, negotiations are likely to have started when we were playing ok and in a position where we could feasibly stay up. However, as we know that feasibility reduced match by match from that first meeting between DH & PH. It's likely that by the time an agreement was reached in full, we were in a much worse position than when they first started negotiations and as a result player sale values would have started to fall....Certainly Mounie, Mbenza, Diakhaby and Pritchard. Kongolo's were probably holding at that stage, only later to fall. At the point of signing the deal, we were probably as good as down and players values would have been tanking by the match. It was a very risky deal. Unfortunately, the risk didn't come off. When we were relegated we had huge debts and liabilities, even without DH's loans included in that. When you add DH's debts to the picture I honest don't see how anyone thought all the debts could possibly be paid, along with all the other running costs. And that's not hindsight. I said at the time the Accounts were published and we were made aware of the loan repayments that the club couldn't afford to pay DH back (I seem to remember having a conversation on here with you about it). |
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Post by Henry Mcgee on Mar 10, 2023 16:53:21 GMT 1
Thats what I think. If he put Town into admin, the most he'd get is 10p in the £, and probably nowhere near that... Im waiting for a payment for an administrator myself and Ill be getting 4p in the £, if it ever happens. Ive already been waiting 3 years! Absolutely...the 'assets' at the club don't amount to much and any potential buyer isn't going to settle DH's debts for him are they..it'll be a buyers market for sure..he'll get naff all. His problem might be no Banks will loan the club £35m anyway..what security is there..? JSS, no...Canalside...no, players..no, Cash in the bank..no, Championship club...no.
it's akin to a sole trader who's put all his money into a failing business then going bust in the hope he'll get all his money back.
I think what he gets back depends whether his loan is 'secured' (guessing his is) or 'unsecured' (guessing Pure's isn't). Secured loans get honoured in full, unsecured loans & creditors get X pence in the pound. He just needs to make some of his loan (more than Pure's) unsecured and presumable he, as majority creditor, can agree to 10p in the £ back. The rest of his loan remains secured and still payable in full in the future. Or maybe he just writes the lot off at this point but ensures Pure also get bugger all. Like has been mentioned - all pre-pack admin - pre agreed with our admins - straight in and straight back out. |
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Post by Teddington Ted on Mar 10, 2023 16:55:03 GMT 1
Royally fucked by people who claim to be fans? Hes putting £100,000 a week into a club he doesnt even own to keep it functioning, and knowing in all likelihood he'll never see it again. And that is royally fucking 'us'....the fans who stump up our £250 a year?? the 'didnt expect the money back' line is so tired. Of course he didnt expect the money back! The only way the club would ever be able to pay him it back would be if we got to the prem,, and I dont know about you but I never expected that to happen either! If you give a fiver to a brassic mate so he can get something to eat,, but on top of the sandwich he also buys a scratch card and wins £1m...I think most people would probably expect the guy to repay you the fiver at least,,even if you weren't expected it back when you gave him it.! Again flawed. He chose not to take back his investment and instead spent 10s and 10s of millions on absolute shit. Only then when the bubble burst and we were going down with a squad full of crap did he set up a deal to take back his money from the parachute payments. We then ended up with nothing as the players he signed were worthless and he sold the club to a guy without a pot to piss in. Every one of those are actions he took without a gun to his head. We are where we are as a result of his rank bad decisions. Not because of the fans 250 quid a year. This is nonsense. Imagine if we’d been relegated with £80m in the bank and he attempted to placate the enraged masses by saying ‘I would have spent it, but I couldn’t guarantee the resale value of the players the gaffer wanted’. People need to separate their points. Hoyle invested in the players he was advised to. Those players turned out to be shite. Not Hoyle’s fault. Hoyle watches Pritchard ‘earn’ millions whilst moaning about a lump on his knee and decides ‘fuck this, everyone has cleared up here whilst I’m £60m out of pocket’. 3 years later he’s had half his brass back and we’re 2 shite refereeing decisions from returning to the PL. It nearly worked out perfectly. Then, after Phil goes bust, Bromby spaffs the budget on utter dross and Baldwin can’t get a deal over the line, Hoyle is public enemy number one again. I’m no acolyte of DH, as my posting history more than illustrates, but in many areas he is far from blame and, even where it could be laid at his door, bad luck and the ineptitude of others plays a massive role. |
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Post by Porrohman on Mar 10, 2023 17:54:25 GMT 1
Why does Hoyle feel he is entitled to the club’s money that we made via promotion to the PL + parachute payments? he doesn’t, he wants a fair amount back based on the extra he has had to put in to keep us in business. especially the money since PH had to pull out.
When did he say that he wants a fair amount back as I have not seen that statement anywhere?
He spunked and wasted his own cash on Diakhaby and Mbenza’s galore, selling them for nothing. No he didn’t he spent the clubs money on Diakhaby and Mbenza and yes in hindsight it was a bad move and the people advising that these two would be good at the time were wrong, DH is not a player expert he employs people to do this job who failed.
The people who failed were employed by Hoyle. When you are at the top you have to accept that ultimately you carry the can!
From a post by Pterrier:-
Dean is happy to point out that ‘every transfer’ goes through him and he sanctions every deal, to quote his own words:
‘Every one! Because ultimately, it’s my cash. They all come past me. Sometimes I’ll say, where’s he going to play? Sometimes I’ll knock them back and say quite frankly - what’s the point of having him here?
Another quote from the book:
You know what, I have got carried away sometimes yeah, but specially on the wages you pay or the players you buy’
Not the club’s fault, but IMO he is entitled for wanting the club’s money it is the clubs fault, doesn’t matter who the owner is the club is spending this money based on group decisions admittedly sanctioned by DH, Dean would be the first to admit he would do the premier league different if he could go back in time, however at the time the potential to establish ourselves as a top tier club was worth the risk and it was all calculated at the time. The problem now is nothing to do with Premier league but to do with PH and the money owed to PURE companies that is stopping us moving forward, DH has made a good offer to all concerned to sort this mess out and the ADMINS are refusing to take this offer or negotiate at this time, the only step now is admin for HTAFC unless the pure admins actually wake up and have some common sense and accept the deal on the table as for sure it will be better than they will get from Admin of HTAFC, the ball is in their court and time is running out.
How do you know it is a good offer that Dean made?
I think that the Pure administrators just don't care about Town and if we go bust. Without seeing the offer, I think that the administrators may think that they have not got much to loose so may as well hold out for the big bucks.
Once DH writes his book or does an interview at some point when all is sorted and he can speak more freely many on here will change there minds and work out they were wrong.
Well he is not saying much at the moment is he? I hope he can prove whatever he does say when he does write his book.
Mistakes have been made this is not in doubt, every football club owner makes mistakes but I am 100% sure that none of the mistakes are made on purpose and number 1 for DH has always been safeguarding the future of HTAFC. There comes a time when you cant continue to throw money at it though especially when there is another option that will speed the whole process up without another penny being spent.
The funding that is leading us to League 1 is not safeguarding the future.
If he does write a book would that mean the NDA's weren't in place anymore and others could have their say too 🤔 |
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Post by softboy on Mar 10, 2023 17:56:29 GMT 1
Like many on here i've been a town fan for a long time (over 50 years) and have seen some great & shite days:
A few spring to mind.
Great.
1) Promotion to PL and winning first game away at Palace.
2) Winning other play off finals including the one where Schindler scored the vital penalty.
3) Staying up in the PL with the draw at Chelsea.
4) Mick Buxton's time at the club.
Shite.
1) Getting relegated from the PL, not the actual relegation but the way we seemed to give up.
2) Being beaten by Shrewsbury ah home ( not sure whether L1 or L2) 5.1. Was a guy called Mason in goal
3) being in the lowest attenance ever at Leeds Road, about 1,500 I believe.
4) Now and its probably going to get worse.
And there will be further ups and downs i'm sure. That's what you sign up for.
At the moment if Administration is the only way forward, and we can get the points deducted this season I would reluntantly take it. Give someone the ave time to sort things out before next season starts.
UTT.
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Post by bradley1985 on Mar 10, 2023 18:14:17 GMT 1
The signings weren’t all crap as time has proven. Sabiri at Sampdoria is a World Cup semi finalist but left town for free. He’s a 15milk player now.
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Post by townarentbest on Mar 10, 2023 18:21:01 GMT 1
I find it quite surprising that someone owning a 25% share of a club that goes into administration can then buy that club to take it out of that administration, but it appears they can. I guess someone owning 25% wouldn't typically be the major creditor of a football club who is able to push through any CVA terms. |
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Yuta be a terrier
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Post by Yuta be a terrier on Mar 10, 2023 18:25:54 GMT 1
Happens quite regularly. Google pre-pack administration. it is all possible and happens all the time, however currently it would not be DH putting the club into Administration, him stopping the funding would put us into Administration but not him as 25% shareholder doing it. PURE Admins would be the ones responsable for any Administration of HTAFC by calling in there debt in full. Fair enough. So if the 25% can convince the 75% to do it then the 25% can just roll in and take it all on the cheap. |
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Post by softboy on Mar 10, 2023 18:28:30 GMT 1
DH is a 25% shareholder in the business not a 25% owner, yes a technicality but could be important going forward. As I see it any Administrator has to get the best possible deal for outside creditors who are owed money and if DH is the only person able to raise the highest bid then it goes to him.
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Post by ilsonterrier on Mar 10, 2023 18:28:56 GMT 1
To correct some comments above referring to Hoyle getting back 10p in the pound - the administration rules have changed over the last couple of years and any new owner has to pay a minimum of 25p in the pound immediately (or 35p in the pound over the following 3 years) otherwise there is a further points deduction.
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Post by Huddy Town Black Sox on Mar 10, 2023 18:49:52 GMT 1
The signings weren’t all crap as time has proven. Sabiri at Sampdoria is a World Cup semi finalist but left town for free. He’s a 15milk player now. I like Samp but they are shite, bottom of serie A and doomed so his value might well be lots less |
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goodbet
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Post by goodbet on Mar 10, 2023 18:54:24 GMT 1
To correct some comments above referring to Hoyle getting back 10p in the pound - the administration rules have changed over the last couple of years and any new owner has to pay a minimum of 25p in the pound immediately (or 35p in the pound over the following 3 years) otherwise there is a further points deduction. I have not kept abreast of the changes. It may be that 25p in the pound is too much for a League 1 club depending on the figure that HTFC owe. |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 10, 2023 18:59:33 GMT 1
No youre wrong. the bubble hadnt burst when he agreed the deal to sell to PH. We were in the PL...a month after meeting him we were 15th in the table and we'd been playing much better than the points at that stage suggested. When it turned out the players we had signed were shit and we did go down,,,obviously badly effecting the clubs finances...he didnt take his money back and as its turned out never will I expect. So you'll get your gift like you expect from him... sorry, like you expect THE CLUB to get from him. ( dont want you thinking that Im saying you yourself are getting the money!) We are where we are because of bad decisions.. some his.. some the people he employs. Just not fair is it? He should have known to make good decisions instead. Hello again my old friend :-) The first bit is most likely correct, negotiations are likely to have started when we were playing ok and in a position where we could feasibly stay up. However, as we know that feasibility reduced match by match from that first meeting between DH & PH. It's likely that by the time an agreement was reached in full, we were in a much worse position than when they first started negotiations and as a result player sale values would have started to fall....Certainly Mounie, Mbenza, Diakhaby and Pritchard. Kongolo's were probably holding at that stage, only later to fall. At the point of signing the deal, we were probably as good as down and players values would have been tanking by the match. It was a very risky deal. Unfortunately, the risk didn't come off. When we were relegated we had huge debts and liabilities, even without DH's loans included in that. When you add DH's debts to the picture I honest don't see how anyone thought all the debts could possibly be paid, along with all the other running costs. And that's not hindsight. I said at the time the Accounts were published and we were made aware of the loan repayments that the club couldn't afford to pay DH back (I seem to remember having a conversation on here with you about it).I wouldn't disagree with that mate. And the club DIDN'T pay him the money back as a result. What at one time seemed perfectly viable, didbt anymore, so the agreement was scrapped. Its a good job the debts were to him and not a bank, as I doubt they'd have been as forgiving somehow. |
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Post by Porrohman on Mar 10, 2023 19:01:33 GMT 1
The signings weren’t all crap as time has proven. Sabiri at Sampdoria is a World Cup semi finalist but left town for free. He’s a 15milk player now. I like Samp but they are shite, bottom of serie A and doomed so his value might well be lots less He'd already agreed a deal with Fiorentina and been loaned back to Sampdoria to finish the season |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 10, 2023 19:04:02 GMT 1
The signings weren’t all crap as time has proven. Sabiri at Sampdoria is a World Cup semi finalist but left town for free. He’s a 15milk player now. Thats just football isnt it. In his case it might be that being released by us spurred him on to be the player he is now. he didnt look a £15m player here put it that way! |
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Post by Captainslapper on Mar 10, 2023 19:06:13 GMT 1
DH is a 25% shareholder in the business not a 25% owner, yes a technicality but could be important going forward. As I see it any Administrator has to get the best possible deal for outside creditors who are owed money and if DH is the only person able to raise the highest bid then it goes to him. Arent they the same thing? I always presumed they were. |
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Post by Million Dollar Babies on Mar 10, 2023 19:08:22 GMT 1
The signings weren’t all crap as time has proven. Sabiri at Sampdoria is a World Cup semi finalist but left town for free. He’s a 15milk player now. Thats just football isnt it. In his case it might be that being released by us spurred him on to be the player he is now. he didnt look a £15m player here put it that way! He still doesn't. Coming off the bench in the world cup and starting for a side rooted to the foot of Serie A doesn't make you a £15 million player |
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Post by townarentbest on Mar 10, 2023 20:23:02 GMT 1
The signings weren’t all crap as time has proven. Sabiri at Sampdoria is a World Cup semi finalist but left town for free. He’s a 15milk player now. Thats just football isnt it. In his case it might be that being released by us spurred him on to be the player he is now. he didnt look a £15m player here put it that way! He looked like a 20 year old whose career could go either way (and his current value is probably around £3.5m rather than £15m!). |
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