Hudlin

[Tinpot]

Nov 7, 2023 10:52:36 GMT 1 goodbet said:

We have had quite a few years now where we have poor transfer windows.

The usual scenario seems to be we sell any players we can get a few bob for and look around for a cheap young players to develop in to the squad.

This is how we have ended up where we are. The summer window where we got rid of anyone we could, even if there was no fee involved left us short of numbers did not help.

All this is why buying players from non league clubs seems to have been our "Hail Mary" shot (buy six hope we get one out of it).

This January we need Championship ready players if we want to avoid relegation, based on the summer window that appears to be just hope on my behalf rather than expectation.

I'd agree with that. I'd suggest we could do with 6 "championship ready" signings in January.

If there's a brilliant prospect somewhere then great, let's take a punt on him too if the budget allows. But that should be in addition to the championship-ready players.

[rockwall]

It's all luck.

You could have list of poor non league signing such as Daniel Carr and Tom Denton.

Or you can end up with a Sorba Thomas or Lee Novak.

Hudlin will end up being in the middle. Better than Carr and Denton but nowhere near Novak and Thomas.

Even Koroma was non league when we bought him, I think??

I really like the approach of finding lower league gems. Peterborough have been masters at it over the years.
If you have the right scouting system in place, it is the way to go.

Low price, low wages. Sell for a huge profit and repeat.

[htafcokay]

Nov 7, 2023 11:32:04 GMT 1 rockwall said:

It's all luck.

You could have list of poor non league signing such as Daniel Carr and Tom Denton.

Or you can end up with a Sorba Thomas or Lee Novak.

Hudlin will end up being in the middle. Better than Carr and Denton but nowhere near Novak and Thomas.

Even Koroma was non league when we bought him, I think??

I really like the approach of finding lower league gems. Peterborough have been masters at it over the years.
If you have the right scouting system in place, it is the way to go.

Low price, low wages. Sell for a huge profit and repeat.

All well and good, but have we ever actually done this?

People keep using Thomas and Koroma as examples, but fail to remember the long list of non-league players we've signed over the years that have amounted to nothing.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone we've signed from non-league in the last 20 years and sold for anything near a huge profit. 

[Christ in Shades (art)]

Nov 7, 2023 10:43:21 GMT 1 Tinpot said:

Nov 7, 2023 10:27:35 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

Is it any wonder we're in the mess we're in given our best players have been signed from Borehamwood, MK Dongs subs bench, Barnsley and Wimbledon although I have no beef with Helik he's a good signing.

Remember when two of our worst players were signed from Monaco? One of them a Dutch International, no less.

Our other players must have been brilliant to be streets ahead of them, right?

The Kongolo situation, no one thought he would turn out to be the shitehouse he was going to be after his, quite frankly,excellent loan spell so again, it's not a good comparison. As for the speed twins, we're either of these 2 any good in the first place? These 2 looked non league but Kongolo, no, no one could have predicted that one.

[calken]

Stearman is in the National league and I dare say he would make most of us (DATM'ers) look like complete numpties on a pitch. My point is, I think the standards between the leagues have closed massively. We see so many out of contract players who were reasonable Championship options a year ago now running around in LG1/2. I suspect that this isn't because they are suddenly Lg1/2 level but the competition for a place in a squad is much higher.

Hudlin's got a lot to work on, will it work out? who knows but I like his attitude and minutes on the pitch are bound to help. I'm not sure how we would ever make a player better by only giving them 10 minutes a game. At Hudlin's current average game time of 11.6 minutes (166 minutes over 15 games) he'll be 31 before reaching Lees' and Rudoni's experience from just last season (over 3,700 minutes each).

[Christ in Shades (art)]

I'm not sure you can say Koroma was non league, OK he was at Leyton Orieng when they were in the conference but he actually made his debut 2 seasons prior to that and had played 2 seasons at League 2 level.

[htafcokay]

Nov 7, 2023 11:55:57 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

I'm not sure you can say Koroma was non league, OK he was at Leyton Orient when they were in the conference but he actually made his debut 2 seasons prior to that and had played 2 seasons at League 2 level.

And funnily enough, 12 months ago 99.9% of Town fans would have been happy to see the back of him, and similarly Sorba Thomas.

[rockwall]

Nov 7, 2023 11:40:30 GMT 1 htafcokay said:

Nov 7, 2023 11:32:04 GMT 1 rockwall said:

It's all luck.

You could have list of poor non league signing such as Daniel Carr and Tom Denton.

Or you can end up with a Sorba Thomas or Lee Novak.

Hudlin will end up being in the middle. Better than Carr and Denton but nowhere near Novak and Thomas.

Even Koroma was non league when we bought him, I think??

I really like the approach of finding lower league gems. Peterborough have been masters at it over the years.
If you have the right scouting system in place, it is the way to go.

Low price, low wages. Sell for a huge profit and repeat.

All well and good, but have we ever actually done this?

People keep using Thomas and Koroma as examples, but fail to remember the long list of non-league players we've signed over the years that have amounted to nothing.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone we've signed from non-league in the last 20 years and sold for anything near a huge profit. 

Hence why I said with the correct scouting in place, like Peterborough.
I agree, we haven't done this to my memory. I feel like we try and copy other clubs models, but fail to get the right people in to apply it.
In my lifetime, we have done better selling our own, Smithies, Hunt, Stead, Booth. At one point Nathan Clarke could have gone for big money for us.

We need the correct balance, bring in experienced players who know the task and job they need to do.
Try and find one or two rough diamonds from down the footballing pyramid along the way.

[rockwall]

Nov 7, 2023 11:55:57 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

I'm not sure you can say Koroma was non league, OK he was at Leyton Orieng when they were in the conference but he actually made his debut 2 seasons prior to that and had played 2 seasons at League 2 level.

He only played 25 games over those 2 seasons. Can imagine at least half will have been sub appearances.

[Christ in Shades (art)]

Nov 7, 2023 12:06:27 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Nov 7, 2023 11:55:57 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

I'm not sure you can say Koroma was non league, OK he was at Leyton Orieng when they were in the conference but he actually made his debut 2 seasons prior to that and had played 2 seasons at League 2 level.

He only played 25 games over those 2 seasons. Can imagine at least half will have been sub appearances.

But he still started his career as a pro, whereas Hudlin, at Solihull, are they part time? I don't think they get the pro grounding from day 1 in a non league part time set up.

[Sparrow]

Nov 7, 2023 12:32:47 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

Nov 7, 2023 12:06:27 GMT 1 rockwall said:

He only played 25 games over those 2 seasons. Can imagine at least half will have been sub appearances.

But he still started his career as a pro, whereas Hudlin, at Solihull, are they part time? I don't think they get the pro grounding from day 1 in a non league part time set up.

Pretty much every team in the National League are now full time professional clubs and have been for a few years

The majority have Academy's training 2-3 days a week, with full time Scholars joining at U17s.

It's more or less a full time professional league. It's near enough League Three now, rather than non league.

[Tinpot]

Nov 7, 2023 11:52:48 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

Nov 7, 2023 10:43:21 GMT 1 Tinpot said:

Remember when two of our worst players were signed from Monaco? One of them a Dutch International, no less.

Our other players must have been brilliant to be streets ahead of them, right?

The Kongolo situation, no one thought he would turn out to be the shitehouse he was going to be after his, quite frankly,excellent loan spell so again, it's not a good comparison. As for the speed twins, we're either of these 2 any good in the first place? These 2 looked non league but Kongolo, no, no one could have predicted that one.

I would suggest it's a very good comparison. You'd agree that TK was a failure, wouldn't you? And an expensive failure at that.

So if buying players from a higher level gives expensive failures, and we shouldn't be going after players from a lower level (disregarding the huge profit made on Karlan Grant from 2 divisions lower down the pyramid), maybe we should get players from a similar level to where we are at the time.

Like Alex Pritchard and Ramadan Sobhi...

Where are we supposed to sign players from?

[rockwall]

Nov 7, 2023 13:12:18 GMT 1 Tinpot said:

Nov 7, 2023 11:52:48 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

The Kongolo situation, no one thought he would turn out to be the shitehouse he was going to be after his, quite frankly,excellent loan spell so again, it's not a good comparison. As for the speed twins, we're either of these 2 any good in the first place? These 2 looked non league but Kongolo, no, no one could have predicted that one.

I would suggest it's a very good comparison. You'd agree that TK was a failure, wouldn't you? And an expensive failure at that.

So if buying players from a higher level gives expensive failures, and we shouldn't be going after players from a lower level (disregarding the huge profit made on Karlan Grant from 2 divisions lower down the pyramid), maybe we should get players from a similar level to where we are at the time.

Like Alex Pritchard and Ramadan Sobhi...

Where are we supposed to sign players from?

The way Lee Clark went about his transfers in his 1st pre season was sensible.
He brought in Clarke, Peltier and Kay who were all captains of their clubs.
Wagner did similar with Schindler,Lowe and Hefele.
All were free agents or low cost too.
1st prem season we brought in players who were classed as high end Championship with Williams, Ince, Malone.

Since then, we haven't had a policy or certain direction. It has been very sporadic and been a club 'to help a friend'

[goodbet]

Nov 7, 2023 13:12:18 GMT 1 Tinpot said:

Nov 7, 2023 11:52:48 GMT 1 Christ in Shades (art) said:

The Kongolo situation, no one thought he would turn out to be the shitehouse he was going to be after his, quite frankly,excellent loan spell so again, it's not a good comparison. As for the speed twins, we're either of these 2 any good in the first place? These 2 looked non league but Kongolo, no, no one could have predicted that one.

I would suggest it's a very good comparison. You'd agree that TK was a failure, wouldn't you? And an expensive failure at that.

So if buying players from a higher level gives expensive failures, and we shouldn't be going after players from a lower level (disregarding the huge profit made on Karlan Grant from 2 divisions lower down the pyramid), maybe we should get players from a similar level to where we are at the time.

Like Alex Pritchard and Ramadan Sobhi...

Where are we supposed to sign players from?

You need to start off with a very good DoF, that knowns the league you are playing in and good contacts in the different leagues. Not one who has spent his time in the USA for years and knows a good fullback (not a fat one) when he sees one.

Scouts are always a good idea and these days a good statatision seems to be required as well.

Maybe we should just get relegated until we have the requisite staff in place.

[mosher]

Nov 7, 2023 13:29:57 GMT 1 goodbet said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:12:18 GMT 1 Tinpot said:

I would suggest it's a very good comparison. You'd agree that TK was a failure, wouldn't you? And an expensive failure at that.

So if buying players from a higher level gives expensive failures, and we shouldn't be going after players from a lower level (disregarding the huge profit made on Karlan Grant from 2 divisions lower down the pyramid), maybe we should get players from a similar level to where we are at the time.

Like Alex Pritchard and Ramadan Sobhi...

Where are we supposed to sign players from?

You need to start off with a very good DoF, that knowns the league you are playing in and good contacts in the different leagues. Not one who has spent his time in the USA for years and knows a good fullback (not a fat one) when he sees one.

Scouts are always a good idea and these days a good statatision seems to be required as well.

Maybe we should just get relegated until we have the requisite staff in place.

That's a new one on me, prefer it to statistician tbh 

[goodbet]

Nov 7, 2023 13:21:56 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:12:18 GMT 1 Tinpot said:

I would suggest it's a very good comparison. You'd agree that TK was a failure, wouldn't you? And an expensive failure at that.

So if buying players from a higher level gives expensive failures, and we shouldn't be going after players from a lower level (disregarding the huge profit made on Karlan Grant from 2 divisions lower down the pyramid), maybe we should get players from a similar level to where we are at the time.

Like Alex Pritchard and Ramadan Sobhi...

Where are we supposed to sign players from?

The way Lee Clark went about his transfers in his 1st pre season was sensible.
He brought in Clarke, Peltier and Kay who were all captains of their clubs.
Wagner did similar with Schindler,Lowe and Hefele.
All were free agents or low cost too.
1st prem season we brought in players who were classed as high end Championship with Williams, Ince, Malone.

Since then, we haven't had a policy or certain direction. It has been very sporadic and been a club 'to help a friend'

We also need to think about getting a balance across the team with some players that have pace and others with strength.
All players should be young enough to have a sell on value. This especially applies to strikers where any value and payback could well be the greatest.

This would mean no more old, past it players.

[rockwall]

Nov 7, 2023 13:38:15 GMT 1 goodbet said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:21:56 GMT 1 rockwall said:

The way Lee Clark went about his transfers in his 1st pre season was sensible.
He brought in Clarke, Peltier and Kay who were all captains of their clubs.
Wagner did similar with Schindler,Lowe and Hefele.
All were free agents or low cost too.
1st prem season we brought in players who were classed as high end Championship with Williams, Ince, Malone.

Since then, we haven't had a policy or certain direction. It has been very sporadic and been a club 'to help a friend'

We also need to think about getting a balance across the team with some players that have pace and others with strength.
All players should be young enough to have a sell on value. This especially applies to strikers where any value and payback could well be the greatest.

This would mean no more old, past it players.

We have never really addressed the pace issue.
Under LC it was great watching Roberts and Pilks attack with pace and in Pilks case strength too. Theo Robinson had pace and was a nuisance in his 1st spell.
Novak had everything you wanted a striker to have to compliment your natural poacher.
Everything just clicked and it felt like the work was done to identify players who would comment eachother.

We had that to a degree with Wagner. VLP, Palmer and Brown having the pace to provide for Wells/Kachunga, who themselves weren't exactly slow.

Mooy and Hogg complimented eachother perfectly, with Billing/Whitehead as more than capable understudies.

[Gag_N_Bone_Man (Destabiliser)]

Nov 7, 2023 13:21:56 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:12:18 GMT 1 Tinpot said:

I would suggest it's a very good comparison. You'd agree that TK was a failure, wouldn't you? And an expensive failure at that.

So if buying players from a higher level gives expensive failures, and we shouldn't be going after players from a lower level (disregarding the huge profit made on Karlan Grant from 2 divisions lower down the pyramid), maybe we should get players from a similar level to where we are at the time.

Like Alex Pritchard and Ramadan Sobhi...

Where are we supposed to sign players from?

The way Lee Clark went about his transfers in his 1st pre season was sensible.
He brought in Clarke, Peltier and Kay who were all captains of their clubs.
Wagner did similar with Schindler,Lowe and Hefele.
All were free agents or low cost too.
1st prem season we brought in players who were classed as high end Championship with Williams, Ince, Malone.

Since then, we haven't had a policy or certain direction. It has been very sporadic and been a club 'to help a friend'

Schindler was a record signing, wasn't he? (I agree with your overall point though)

[mosher]

Nov 7, 2023 13:54:40 GMT 1 Gag_N_Bone_Man (Destabiliser) said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:21:56 GMT 1 rockwall said:

The way Lee Clark went about his transfers in his 1st pre season was sensible.
He brought in Clarke, Peltier and Kay who were all captains of their clubs.
Wagner did similar with Schindler,Lowe and Hefele.
All were free agents or low cost too.
1st prem season we brought in players who were classed as high end Championship with Williams, Ince, Malone.

Since then, we haven't had a policy or certain direction. It has been very sporadic and been a club 'to help a friend'

Schindler was a record signing, wasn't he? (I agree with your overall point though)

That's still low cost to most other clubs though 

[themanfromatlantis]

I’m hearing he’s out due to injury…






A bad case of concussion after he didn’t bend low enough when going in to view Pritchard’s old gaff…

[mosher]

Nov 7, 2023 14:28:34 GMT 1 themanfromatlantis said:

I’m hearing he’s out due to injury…






A bad case of concussion after he didn’t bend low enough when going in to view Pritchard’s old gaff…

I'm not sure he'd hit his head bending over, he'd have to crawl to get through his door surely?

[Tinpot]

Nov 7, 2023 13:32:53 GMT 1 mosher said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:29:57 GMT 1 goodbet said:

You need to start off with a very good DoF, that knowns the league you are playing in and good contacts in the different leagues. Not one who has spent his time in the USA for years and knows a good fullback (not a fat one) when he sees one.

Scouts are always a good idea and these days a good statatision seems to be required as well.

Maybe we should just get relegated until we have the requisite staff in place.

That's a new one on me, prefer it to statistician tbh 

What are the chances of getting one of those though?

[Tinpot]

Nov 7, 2023 13:45:09 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:38:15 GMT 1 goodbet said:

We also need to think about getting a balance across the team with some players that have pace and others with strength.
All players should be young enough to have a sell on value. This especially applies to strikers where any value and payback could well be the greatest.

This would mean no more old, past it players.

We have never really addressed the pace issue.
Under LC it was great watching Roberts and Pilks attack with pace and in Pilks case strength too. Theo Robinson had pace and was a nuisance in his 1st spell.
Novak had everything you wanted a striker to have to compliment your natural poacher.
Everything just clicked and it felt like the work was done to identify players who would comment eachother.

We had that to a degree with Wagner. VLP, Palmer and Brown having the pace to provide for Wells/Kachunga, who themselves weren't exactly slow.

Mooy and Hogg complimented eachother perfectly, with Billing/Whitehead as more than capable understudies.

Ahem!

www.htafc.com/news/2018/july/transfer-adama-diakhaby-arrives-from-as-monaco/

[Tinpot]

Nov 7, 2023 13:21:56 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:12:18 GMT 1 Tinpot said:

I would suggest it's a very good comparison. You'd agree that TK was a failure, wouldn't you? And an expensive failure at that.

So if buying players from a higher level gives expensive failures, and we shouldn't be going after players from a lower level (disregarding the huge profit made on Karlan Grant from 2 divisions lower down the pyramid), maybe we should get players from a similar level to where we are at the time.

Like Alex Pritchard and Ramadan Sobhi...

Where are we supposed to sign players from?

The way Lee Clark went about his transfers in his 1st pre season was sensible.
He brought in Clarke, Peltier and Kay who were all captains of their clubs.
Wagner did similar with Schindler,Lowe and Hefele.
All were free agents or low cost too.
1st prem season we brought in players who were classed as high end Championship with Williams, Ince, Malone.

Since then, we haven't had a policy or certain direction. It has been very sporadic and been a club 'to help a friend'

Yeah, I'd go along with that.

If you're not going to spend a lot on players then you need a really good balance of players whose attributes compliment one another. Which requires a great scouting network. Plus good coaches. Plus a lot of luck.

Coaching and scouting is where I'd focus a lot of our investment. Might not be as exciting as spending £17m on a Dutch international but it looks like our best route to success.

[Porrohman]

Nov 7, 2023 13:45:09 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:38:15 GMT 1 goodbet said:

We also need to think about getting a balance across the team with some players that have pace and others with strength.
All players should be young enough to have a sell on value. This especially applies to strikers where any value and payback could well be the greatest.

This would mean no more old, past it players.

We have never really addressed the pace issue.
Under LC it was great watching Roberts and Pilks attack with pace and in Pilks case strength too. Theo Robinson had pace and was a nuisance in his 1st spell.
Novak had everything you wanted a striker to have to compliment your natural poacher.
Everything just clicked and it felt like the work was done to identify players who would comment eachother.

We had that to a degree with Wagner. VLP, Palmer and Brown having the pace to provide for Wells/Kachunga, who themselves weren't exactly slow.

Mooy and Hogg complimented eachother perfectly, with Billing/Whitehead as more than capable understudies.

I must've missed the time when Gary Roberts had pace, always had him alongside Clarke and Rhodes for being glacial when running 😁

[Porrohman]

Nov 7, 2023 14:28:34 GMT 1 themanfromatlantis said:

I’m hearing he’s out due to injury…






A bad case of concussion after he didn’t bend low enough when going in to view Pritchard’s old gaff…

Why was he looking at a house fit for a Borrower anyway 🤔😉

[goodbet]

Nov 7, 2023 14:46:23 GMT 1 Tinpot said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:21:56 GMT 1 rockwall said:

The way Lee Clark went about his transfers in his 1st pre season was sensible.
He brought in Clarke, Peltier and Kay who were all captains of their clubs.
Wagner did similar with Schindler,Lowe and Hefele.
All were free agents or low cost too.
1st prem season we brought in players who were classed as high end Championship with Williams, Ince, Malone.

Since then, we haven't had a policy or certain direction. It has been very sporadic and been a club 'to help a friend'

Yeah, I'd go along with that.

If you're not going to spend a lot on players then you need a really good balance of players whose attributes compliment one another. Which requires a great scouting network. Plus good coaches. Plus a lot of luck.

Coaching and scouting is where I'd focus a lot of our investment. Might not be as exciting as spending £17m on a Dutch international but it looks like our best route to success.

And who at the club is going to do this selecting?

Not the people who were in charge of the summer recruitment surely?

[rockwall]

Nov 7, 2023 14:40:31 GMT 1 Tinpot said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:45:09 GMT 1 rockwall said:

We have never really addressed the pace issue.
Under LC it was great watching Roberts and Pilks attack with pace and in Pilks case strength too. Theo Robinson had pace and was a nuisance in his 1st spell.
Novak had everything you wanted a striker to have to compliment your natural poacher.
Everything just clicked and it felt like the work was done to identify players who would comment eachother.

We had that to a degree with Wagner. VLP, Palmer and Brown having the pace to provide for Wells/Kachunga, who themselves weren't exactly slow.

Mooy and Hogg complimented eachother perfectly, with Billing/Whitehead as more than capable understudies.

Ahem!

www.htafc.com/news/2018/july/transfer-adama-diakhaby-arrives-from-as-monaco/

Thank you for bringing him back to my memory....

[rockwall]

Nov 7, 2023 16:10:54 GMT 1 Porrohman said:

Nov 7, 2023 13:45:09 GMT 1 rockwall said:

We have never really addressed the pace issue.
Under LC it was great watching Roberts and Pilks attack with pace and in Pilks case strength too. Theo Robinson had pace and was a nuisance in his 1st spell.
Novak had everything you wanted a striker to have to compliment your natural poacher.
Everything just clicked and it felt like the work was done to identify players who would comment eachother.

We had that to a degree with Wagner. VLP, Palmer and Brown having the pace to provide for Wells/Kachunga, who themselves weren't exactly slow.

Mooy and Hogg complimented eachother perfectly, with Billing/Whitehead as more than capable understudies.

I must've missed the time when Gary Roberts had pace, always had him alongside Clarke and Rhodes for being glacial when running 😁

Never forget his 1st goal for us when he jinxed between 2 Bradford players and ran 30 yards through on goal.
If he wasn't the quickest, he certainly knew how to at least beat a full back.... sometimes after doing it and going back for more.

[FloridaTerrier]

Nov 7, 2023 11:32:04 GMT 1 rockwall said:

It's all luck.

You could have list of poor non league signing such as Daniel Carr and Tom Denton.

Or you can end up with a Sorba Thomas or Lee Novak.

Hudlin will end up being in the middle. Better than Carr and Denton but nowhere near Novak and Thomas.

Even Koroma was non league when we bought him, I think??

I really like the approach of finding lower league gems. Peterborough have been masters at it over the years.
If you have the right scouting system in place, it is the way to go.

Low price, low wages. Sell for a huge profit and repeat.

Requires patience. Something we as a fan base lack for the most part unfortunately. Especially with players.