merkin
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Post by merkin on Jan 24, 2011 9:14:22 GMT 1
I know. I can barely believe it myself but the free market suggests otherwise.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Jan 24, 2011 13:52:02 GMT 1
That's why the free market isn't the whole answer.
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Will_75
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Post by Will_75 on Jan 24, 2011 17:18:46 GMT 1
"I don't believe that the changes to the NHS are driven by the cuts Merk. They really are purely ideological."
aren't all political decisions ideological?
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Jan 24, 2011 17:27:16 GMT 1
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12267007Seems that even the CBI are now cottoning on. To a certain degree Will, but this government are selling them as the only alternative to bankruptcy. And even Thatcher waited for a few years before bringing in wholesale changes.
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Jan 24, 2011 17:47:40 GMT 1
brispie
The coalition have to cut..they simply have no choice.
I'm quite sure that they would rather have a more rosy garden to prune in but they haven't been left that luxury.
I don't think you quite understand how bad things are.
It's easy to have a pop at the government now that your own preferred choice totally fucked it all up.
It's like Labour have cut your legs off but you are choosing to moan at the ConLibs for giving you a red wheelchair when you wanted a black one.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Jan 25, 2011 10:34:57 GMT 1
Do you find it difficult to comprehend that everyone doesn't see it the same as you?
A worldwide recession stuffed us up.
A deeply unpopular PM lost an election, but the main opposition party still failed to win an overall majority, hardly a ringing endorsement.
Lib Dems, with a larger percentage of left sided voters, jump in bed with the tories and fuck themselves over for a generation.
The govt use the recession as an excuse to make the cuts to satisfy their big business buddies (I appreciate that cuts needed to be made, I just think it has been done incorrectly).
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Jan 25, 2011 10:51:29 GMT 1
I'm not surprised that the 'world owes me a living' crew see it a different way than me and that is why this group of people would not vote for a Tory government.
You a bang on, it's hardly a ringing endorsement for the common sense and morality of the British people.
The Lib Dems probably have fucked themselves but they had little choice.
Where do you think the cuts should be made then? Doesn't really seem that too many people have too much to say on that does it (including that outgoing CBI muppet)?
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Jan 25, 2011 10:56:29 GMT 1
Now, I have no particular dog in this fight, but that is bullshit. It stuffed us (well, you. I'm still hoping to profit from Britain's penury) up in the same way as an accounting audit fucked up Enron.
And Will is right, for the first time in living memory. Any political decision is ideological. It was ideologica bloating out the NHS to the third biggest employer in the world or whatever it is and employing half the country in pointless public sector jobs because that gives you a nice guaranteed Labour voting base.
I don't have any time for the other lot either, private companies + public money equals piggies in the fucking trough and trebles all round for the c**** at the top. A biblical-style plague of AIDS and ebola on both their worthless houses.
It would nice, for once, to have a government that could show a bit of fucking responsibility when it comes to the nation's physical and financial health rather than lining their own fucking pockets and pushing through their ridiculous, ill-informed divisive bullshit. No chance of that with that mad fucking thieving witch Dianne Abbot as the Shadow. On the basis of the current leadership, I'd say Labour are fucked for more than a generation. Milliband makes Kinnock look like Clement cocking Attlee.
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Jan 25, 2011 11:04:01 GMT 1
Labour should be fucked for a generation but they won't be because the gullible and selfish British public will vote them in again because the handouts have dried up.
At least this government are fully aware that what they are doing will not make them popular but that it needs doing regardless.
Of course, they won't get every choice right but they are on the right lines from what I can see.
No doubt we will have more crying and wailing over the economic contraction though.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Jan 25, 2011 11:06:37 GMT 1
this is instructive (caveat emptor etc. And I realise it isn't the NHS).
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plumbs
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Post by plumbs on Jan 25, 2011 12:23:15 GMT 1
As ever this (these) arguments become polarised but in the main Bernie has it summed up just about right. Tax avoidance and the lining of corporate pockets knocks the money spent on the welfare state into a cocked hat,and that usually or not exclusively is the preserve of the Tories.
The current Condem abomination is only serving however to divide the country even more,where polices and the like will become more polarised as the years roll by.
Its us and them all over again
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Post by markelt on Jan 25, 2011 12:59:51 GMT 1
I'm not surprised that the 'world owes me a living' crew see it a different way than me and that is why this group of people would not vote for a Tory government. Well I see it a different way. I haven't claimed benefits ever, haven't been anything other than self-employed for 15 years and have given jobs and work to other people. My total tax bill last year was twice the national average income. And I wouldn't vote Tory because they're a bunch of c**** who aren't interested in anything except keeping their friends OK and fucking everybody else over. I know you can level all sorts of similarly damning accusations at Labour. A plague on all their houses as Bernie says, but still I'm with Galbraith on what conservatives stand for. I'd rather vote for people who want what's best for the majority. Unfortunately people who represent such utiltitarian thinking in politics are thin on the ground.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Jan 25, 2011 13:47:03 GMT 1
Yeah, but that's the problem, innit? The majority can't agree on what's best for the them. So you end up imposing what YOU think is best for the majority on a load of people who don't agree with you. Some of whom might disagree actively. And wa la bingo bango you're living in year zero, Cambodia. What *I* think is best for the majority is for the majority of them to just fucking die or get sterilised, and the rest of us to grow our own food and broadcast paranoid conspiracy theories over short- ![wave](//storage.proboards.com/2448479/images/RwIejScZXfcVF03VdNjZ.gif) radio. When we're not sailing or giving each other pedicures.
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Post by markelt on Jan 25, 2011 14:27:20 GMT 1
I think the research from Milgram and Darley and Latane and just generally walking around and listening to what people think is enough to convince me that two thirds of people should be brutally done away with at any one time. Or we can just send them off on the B Ark with the recruitment consultants
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Post by fgrfc_dan on Jan 25, 2011 14:45:08 GMT 1
Surely Milgram's results are a good thing in terms of governing the majority? Can't have all the plebs questioning authority, or we'll be in all kinds of anarchy. The general public is barely smart enough to decide which way it wants to give all its money to Simon Cowell, let alone decide anything important.
That said, none of that contradicts the need for a cull. Bernie's got my vote.
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Post by markelt on Jan 25, 2011 14:56:05 GMT 1
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Jan 25, 2011 14:56:35 GMT 1
Sparky has taken Millgram a bit too literally, I think:
"You have no other choice, you must go on (and on, and on, and on.... )" ;-)
I had to winkypaedia this Latrine feller though - I did get an illuminating book for Christmas that basically said the Kitty Genovese incident was made up by the NYPD to stop them looking so fucking incompetent, so that pretty much knocks his and Darley's cocks into a hat or something. That book might have been wrong on this point, mind.
I'd have enjoyed the Stanford Prison experiment though. I've had a thing for mirrored shades ever since "Cool Hand Luke".
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Post by markelt on Jan 25, 2011 15:05:50 GMT 1
I think that the Kitty Genovese thing was overstated but there's loads of stuff subsequently that proves the same point.
All these things are flawed one way or another but knowing basic stuff about something like phallometry is a useful tool when it comes to dealing with homophobes, IMO.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Jan 25, 2011 15:14:03 GMT 1
It's also useful for getting your hands on other men's cocks, you flaming poofter.
Essentially I agree re: D &L. Millgram showed a similar thing and the Stanford shenanigans showed something probably related and and even more scary. Intelligence/ethics tests with summary execution for failure at the age of about 6 should sort it out.
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Post by JohnnyNeptune on Jan 25, 2011 15:28:59 GMT 1
interestingly (or not) the standard response from the "so called" liberal radio4 audience on mark thomas' latest show is generally always 'hang them' or 'these people not getting their oyster cards out quick enough need a good shoeing' - or the von elt effect, in effect. i'm with the honorable member for sven eugenics south, but i'd make the age limit much later. logan's run had it about right, that way we get to see jenny agutter in her pants. ps: pace milgram en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_prank_call_scam
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Jan 26, 2011 9:10:45 GMT 1
Ahhh, it's the old 'c****' trick.
Just like Tony Pulis eh.
Well I'll take these selfish c**** over these lovely, caring Labour folk any day of the week.
Only one set has totally fucked the country up.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Jan 26, 2011 10:59:52 GMT 1
I'd also profer my vote to Bernie, if I didn't think he'd have us all dressed in leather and frog marching down Wembley Way before we had realised what was happening.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that this lot are fucking the country more than the previous lot in my opinion, but they are also doing it double quick as I think they realise that there stay in office may well be short.
Some professor who lives in Bristol and has predicted many election results says the following scenario is likely this year:
Lib dems get a huge kicking in the local elections. The coalition falls apart. We go to to the polls again in late 2011 or early 2012. Labour win a small majority as the left leaning lib dems desert the ship for labour.
It made me feel a bit better anyway.
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Post by fgrfc_dan on Jan 26, 2011 11:08:40 GMT 1
All that would be fine if there were anyone in the Labour party at the moment who was remotely inspiring but it's largely the same hopeless tossers who were there before and they don't really have any great ideas.
Fundamentally the country's fucked because everyone wants something that's unattainable and only a small proportion are prepared to even try to help get there. Our historical success was based on being c**** to pretty much everyone and we're not even allowed to do that anymore.
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Post by turtle on Jan 26, 2011 11:10:25 GMT 1
Yvette Balls inspires me to take up boxing.
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Post by markelt on Jan 26, 2011 11:13:16 GMT 1
Ahhh, it's the old 'c****' trick. Just like Tony Pulis eh. Well I'll take these selfish c**** over these lovely, caring Labour folk any day of the week. Only one set has totally fucked the country up. Well not quite because the Tories would not have done anything fundamentally different to Labour to deal with the financial crisis and I don't see anything in Labour to make me confident they would improve things if they came in. You're stuck in old ideas of adversarial politics when it's actually now a case of the people vs the government, whoever they are.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie on Jan 26, 2011 11:37:14 GMT 1
What's wrong with leather? I'd prefer have us all constantly prank-calling McDonalds than marching anywhere. Marching's shit.
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Jan 26, 2011 11:40:58 GMT 1
Elt
Why are you being so blatently ignorant to historical facts on the debt and deficit and so blatently ignornat to the fact that it is so much more than just the financial crisis?
brispie
I actually feel really sorry for you if that is your thinking on the matter.
Deep down, Elt knows he's fucking wrong and he can barely stomach that Labour totally fucked their day in the sun and have massively hampered the country. They make Thatcher and Major times look very, very healthy for the nation....even though they were c****.
It really hurts when you pick the wrong horse and then have to make some shit up about the ground being a bit too soft or the fences were a bit too high.
He'll argue diamonds are dog turds before he has to admit that the Tories have done a better job.
You actually believe the shit that you write though.
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brispie
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Post by brispie on Jan 26, 2011 14:57:54 GMT 1
So you think that the majority of this country think that the tory way is the right way and those that don't are either idiots or in denial?
I actually liked have a labour government. They made some really shit decisions along the way, but apart from the odd case, you had the feeling that they were working towards helping the average person on the street.
I think on the whole the tories look out for the narrow social elite and if the rest of society benefits, all good and well, if they don't, then fuck them.
Brown was no PM and running up to the last election I genuinely thought that a spell of the tories might not be so bad. How wrong was I. Thankfully I managed to remember how to vote come election day and enough of us did to ensure that labour didn't enter oblivion like the tories did in 97.
I'm no economist, but I still believe that during a recession or slow growth period you need to balance investment with tightening of belts. All I see from the condems is tightening of belts. I can only see the economy continuing to go to pot, whilst also having more people out of work, more benefit claimants, more crime and less police to sort it out. This all happening whilst we stumble through potentially another recession.
Labour worry me in that they have still not come up with a new credible economic plan, however, I hope that they have learnt the lessons of what this government have done and correct it when they do get back into power, as they will.
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plumbs
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Post by plumbs on Jan 26, 2011 15:04:15 GMT 1
You're stuck in old ideas of adversarial politics when it's actually now a case of the people vs the government, whoever they are. Nail on head and proven in the subsequent replies (thumbs up smiley)
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merkin
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Post by merkin on Jan 26, 2011 15:56:59 GMT 1
So you think that saddling the country with an enormous debt and deficit was 'helping the average man on the street'?
I can't believe you are honestly expecting a new credible, economic plan when they didn't have one for the entire time they were in government.
Building a debt and increasing the deficit is not a long term credible plan.
This is why we are in big fucking trouble.
All of these swinging Tory cuts you keep going on about won't even touch the sides for years and years.
That is how badly Labour fucked you and yet you lap it up with a spoon.
I'm sorry but you would either have to most definitely be either a selfish c*** spongeing off the system, a complete and utter idiot or in absolute denial about who truly fucked this up.
No one will come up with a credible, economic plan until we navigate the nigh on impossible task of denting the deficit without some fat, Labour baroness bint crying because we won't get the BBC world service in fucking Macedonian any more.
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