merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 8, 2011 10:25:45 GMT 1
brispie
If running the country was all so easy then why did Labour have to borrow so much every year?
|
|
brispie
Andy Booth Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_red.png)
[M0:0]
Posts: 3,386
|
Post by brispie on Mar 8, 2011 10:42:22 GMT 1
More signs that things aren't looking up though.
I hope AV wins. We desperately need it. However, not sure it will.
At least labour ran the country for the majority.
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 8, 2011 11:10:21 GMT 1
Very true
They've given the majority an increase in debt.
What a great challenge and opportunity that is.
|
|
|
Post by fgrfc_dan on Mar 8, 2011 11:13:48 GMT 1
We don't need AV, we need PR. But I'll still vote in favour of AV because it's better than nothing. I think there are some long-term signs of recovery but you can't expect to see anything too soon. It'll probably turn up just in time for Labour to take credit for it ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 9, 2011 9:39:27 GMT 1
Very true They've given the majority an increase in debt. What a great challenge and opportunity that is. Unlike previous Tory Governments ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) You are funny Merk. You're still living in some 1970s bilateral class war. Your Dad worked on a pot bank but you've got a job as a supervisor at Wedgwood and wear a tie to work. Mind Your Language is still the top comedy on telly. You drive an Austin Maxi but want a Princess. You fancy Anne Aston and most nights sit at the bar at The Bulls Vaults with a pint of Double Diamond moaning about Harold Wilson. On Saturdays you take the wife in with you, but you sit in the Lounge when she's there and get her a Barley Wine and some crisps. Now and then you go to the Berni or the Koh i Noor. She prefers the Berni, glass of Fresh Orange Juice to start or Melon Balls, scampi to follow. Black Forest Gateau. She rolls her eyes when you start talking about the unions and you finish the meal in silence. Go home to watch The Generation Game. She goes to bed when Match of the Day comes on. you stay up and have a wank about Anne Aston, trying to keep images of Bessie Braddock out of your mind. She knows you're wanking but doesn't say anything. She doesn't mind so long as she can keep you off talking about Enoch Powell. She prefers holidays in Rhyl but you insist you go in the caravan to Dorset.
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 9, 2011 10:33:42 GMT 1
Even a slighty amusing, yet wholly inaccurate attempt at comedy can't mask your stupidity on this topic.
It's not a class war. It's a global war.
For the 18th time, Thatcher significantly improved the financial position of this country from a deficit to a surplus. Major had a rough time before returning the country to a surplus. Labour even enjoyed it for a few years.
Now, after over a decade of their reign, please tell me what they have left us. If you use the word 'banks', then please put into context by valuing the cost of that crisis.
I'll give you some clues in this word search - look for PFIs, pension deficit, £1 trillion+ debt, £150 billion deficit....
Yes, the banks take a share in the blame, they were supposed to run a profitable and sustainable business.
However, the government and the UK at large just borrowed and borrowed and threw money East until even they woke up thought can these stupid Western fuckers even pay it back.
This is not something new, this has been known for years and years. I've been going for conferences for years and years where they describe China dominating the world as they continue to stack our cash up in their big fuck off vaults.
This whole concept of borrow today, pay tomorrow is a cancer that even Labour, after all that has happened, cannot get their heads around....and why...because its a class war...
Jesus wept.
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 9, 2011 10:49:55 GMT 1
Your problem is that the ideological battle is over. You're having an argument that was over in the 1980s. You're right about all that but PFI was a Tory invention. Personal debt is a structural consequence of the economic consensus. The shit we are in is because of a failure to regulate financial markets - something driven by all parties and in all countries. The left moved right on economics, the right moved left on 'society'. There is no significant difference between them. They even appoint leaders from the same mould. They are all interchangeable and all believe largely the same things. It's no good pointing the finger at this government or that government because they'd all do broadly the same things.
You are Hiroo Onoda and I claim my £5.
|
|
Michelotti
Tom Cowan Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
[M0:0]Mmmm Pie!
Posts: 797
|
Post by Michelotti on Mar 9, 2011 11:33:25 GMT 1
Your problem is that the ideological battle is over. You're having an argument that was over in the 1980s. You're right about all that but PFI was a Tory invention. Personal debt is a structural consequence of the economic consensus. The shit we are in is because of a failure to regulate financial markets - something driven by all parties and in all countries. The left moved right on economics, the right moved left on 'society'. There is no significant difference between them. They even appoint leaders from the same mould. They are all interchangeable and all believe largely the same things. It's no good pointing the finger at this government or that government because they'd all do broadly the same things. So that's it then, we're all fucked and planet earth is going to hell in a hand cart. I'll sleep much better now. Hallelujah!
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 10, 2011 9:10:53 GMT 1
How can the argument be over when Labour are still arguing for the road that would still take us to bankruptcy and people are still arguing about bankers - completely the wrong issue.
'Cuts - too fast , too deep.' Really? Even as is under the coalition we will go to the absolute fucking limit.
People have no idea about the difficulty in cutting such a deficit and losses. If they did, they wouldn't be moaning about the new boss of RBS getting a shit load of cash for turning around a shit business. They still should be moaning at 'Fred' who should be in fucking prison by now.
Are China in the shit financially? The only countries that are in the shit are the ones that couldn't handle the banking crisis because of their already massive debts and deficits.
Again, answer the fucking question and put the banking crisis into context of the current debt and the deficit.
As for PFI (which I think could work in principle if done correctly) - the Tories had their doubts about executing it whereas Labour were happy to plough on with it and totally fucked up the 'negotation' of it - literally throwing money through over priced ventures that will hurt us for years.
(If I murdered someone I would still go to prison you know - I wouldn't get off on the basis that someone else came up with the idea.)
This shift to the centre only happened because of the millions of cretins in this country that couldn't accept Thatcher's thruth.
What followed is exactly as you describe- The left quietly moved to follow her and the right moved in an attempt to become electable and fight against the Labour mantra of sharing the wealth to fuckers that don't deserve it. Everyone lapped this up with a spoon though didn't they. 'Things can only get better' wasn't it?
Sadly, the ideoligical battle isn't over, it just becomes ignored (or people get splinters from jumping either side of the fence) when it suits them.
The other issue is that the majority of people don't even have a fucking clue what is going on.
What the last Labour government did was nothing short of scandoulous - deceitful, inept and disgracefully wasteful and it would never, ever, ever have happened under someone like Thatcher.
There is only one of us that lives in the 80s - you've hated the wrong woman for years and years - stop crying and get fucking over it.
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 10, 2011 16:48:39 GMT 1
What's your point? That they all believe the same things when they're in Government then bitch about it when they're in opposition? Like a bunch of middle aged public school c**** scoring points at The Debating Soc arguing for things they don't believe? If so, bang on.
Meanwhile, give me billions of pounds and I'll make it look like I've turned a business around. Hopefully I'll have retired by the time the people who paid for it have realised I haven't changed a fucking thing.
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 10, 2011 16:51:27 GMT 1
PS The reason it wouldn't have happened under Thatcher is because she'd have decided that if they didn't vote for her, they deserve to fucking suffer. Thank God not all Tories think like her.
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 10, 2011 19:15:11 GMT 1
How can they all act the same?
brispie is quite clear that he wants the Tories out for Labour because they act differently.
you are quite clear that the Tories are to blame when they hadn't even been near the country for over a decade.
Tories produced a completely different set of financial results when they left office each time.
Like I've said before, it doesn't matter what you believe, think or say - it matters what you do. ie you either push your country to bankrupcy or you don't.
Come on, keep up eh.
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 11, 2011 11:44:24 GMT 1
I am quite clear what? The Tories would have what in 2008?
Shall I send your former commanding officer up to the hills to convince you it's over, merkin-san?
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 11, 2011 13:16:41 GMT 1
I can't help you any more.
In the last 40 years they have produced a completely different set of results from each other in financial terms of where they left the country.
This is a clear fact yet somehow you have convinced yourself that they are one and the same - just in different clothing.
It's horseshit. It's like saying that Huddersfield (no offence) and Chelsea are the same and produce the same results because they are both football teams, kick a ball around and both say that they want to win the Premiership.
The fucking facts of the league table would show that to be complete and utter bollocks.
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 11, 2011 13:29:13 GMT 1
No the facts are that they would all have done the same thing in 2008, that Labour would be doing what the Tories are doing now if they were in power and you have convinced yourself that there is a problem with a graph that clearly shows that the 2008 banking crisis is the cause of the current debt with a line that shoots off the chart (the same line in fact that shows that debt goes up and down with all governments). All this is agreed on by everybody except for you in your cave shooting at Polynesian fishermen. Can we at least send you some tins of Spam?
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 11, 2011 13:38:20 GMT 1
I don't disagree that Labour and the Tories might have done the same things in 2008.
The point is that history shows we would probably not have had the horrendous deficit at the point preceding it had we been under a Tory government.
Of the annual deficit we now have (£150 billion) - how much goes to the banks Einstein?
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 11, 2011 13:48:44 GMT 1
This will help you....already linked on here but you obviously have problems reading.
By Philip Aldrick 6:00AM GMT 15 Dec 2010 3 Comments A forensic review by the NAO found that the Government is paying more on the debt taken to rescue the banks in 2008 than the banks are paying in fees and interest. For the two years the rescue schemes have been in place, the debt has cost the Treasury £10bn but income from the banks has been only £9.91bn.
Although the net burden so far has been just £90m, the NAO said income has been flattered by a one-off £2.5bn payment from Lloyds Banking Group to escape the Asset Protection Scheme (APS). Fees from the guarantee schemes are also expected to fall as they run down, it added, further draining the Treasury of income.
The Government's bank rescue debts amount to £124bn, with £67bn of capital injected into the lenders and £57bn of loans provided. The net cost of financing the debt next year, which an NAO spokesman confirmed would be about £1.5bn unless the bank shares are sold or the loans repaid, will be more than the £1.15bn the Treasury expects to raise from its new bank levy.
The NAO report flatly contradicts the impression given by former Chancellor Alistair Darling in the March Budget, when he said: "The Treasury has already received over £8bn in fees and charges from the banks, in return for our support."
It also takes a far more conservative stance than current Chancellor George Osborne. Mr Osborne estimated in the June Budget the taxpayer would make "at least £5bn" from the bank guarantee schemes, including the APS. However, the NAO suggested the Treasury would only break-even, saying: "The most likely scenario is that there will be no overall loss on the main guarantees, namely, the APS, Special Liquidity or Credit Guarantee [SLS and CGS]."
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 11, 2011 15:03:12 GMT 1
The problem you have Hiroo is nobody is disagreeing with you. Will you come down for some boiled sweets?
|
|
ab
Andy Booth Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_red.png)
[M0:0]
Posts: 3,001
|
Post by ab on Mar 14, 2011 13:04:09 GMT 1
Is this still going on? I think the principal differences we'd have seen had the Tories been in since 01 would have been that we'd have a lot fewer new schools and hospitals and so a much lower PFI repayments burden. As the financing for the PFIs came principally from large banks, the banking sector would have been somewhat smaller. We probably would have joined in with most of the rest of the EU to restrict free movement of workers from the new EU states in 2004 so that there would have been more need to train and employ British people to fill skills shortages. There would have been fewer new public sector jobs, particularly for social policy roles (outreach, inclusion, diversity etc would not have been common elements of job roles). We'd have had fewer shiny but empty business parks in the midlands and north. We'd not have bailed out Northern Rock and HBOS and RBS would have restructured themselves a year or more earlier, bringing unemployment to West Yorks and Edinburgh but making less public money be used to support fat cat bankers. We'd have had a small recession at the bursting of the dot com bubble and no-one believing that boom and bust were abolished so that excessive personal debt would have been less likely.
Overall we'd be in a better position, but we'd have missed out on seemingly endless days of prosperity up to 2008.
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 15, 2011 10:45:09 GMT 1
Of course, its going on. Elt can't make his mind up as to whether or not he actually agrees or disagrees yet.
I'm expecting him to support Bolton in the first half at Wembley, Stoke in the second....and blame Gudjon Thordarson if we lose.
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 15, 2011 11:16:17 GMT 1
Agrees or disagrees with what? That the Government should bail out British Leyland? That we should do something about Biafra?
Labour fucked up. The Tories are fucking up. The Lib Dems are cheering them on. PFI is a good idea when you're in office, not when you're in opposition. Borrowing money, especially to buy houses, was a good thing according to everybody. Now it's a bad thing. Debts and deficits go up and down regardless of the party in Government because they are dealing with a global economy they have limited control over. They all agreed that subsidies are bad for failing industries, except for banks which are necessary. The other thing they all agree on is you need a leader that looks and acts a bit like Tony Blair. A PR man, 40-something years old, family man, suited, doesn't look weird when he smiles, no outward signs of personality. So wenches and Ken with his belly and comfy shoes are out, regardless of whether they'd be good at the job or otherwise.
This is the world we have. I'm not arguing for anything.
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 15, 2011 12:05:14 GMT 1
What's this 'they' and 'everybody' bollocks?
Just because you decided to loathe a woman and a party for whatever ideological reasons you had, you can't bring yourself to admit that as far as within the confines of how running a country, c*** or not, she was on the right lines.
It's akin to how you used to moan incessantly at Pulis for signing his son when that simply wasn't the issue.
Governments are entirely responsible for their debts and deficits - they should expect recessions from time to time and build this in.
The reason why you're not arguing for anything is because you don't like what's on offer.
Money doesn't grow trees and it can't just be borrowed incessantly and then shared out amongst the masses. Sorry to break the news, but Robin Hood is dead.
Top line, a country has to live within it's means and be able to stand on it's own two feet.
You are deflecting the key issue with minor and irrelevant detail. It's not just about the choices you make, but the the timing of when you make them.
You know this though, but as you've admitted before, you will argue black is white before you'll admit you are wrong.
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 15, 2011 12:26:28 GMT 1
But I'm not arguing with you, you idiot. I don't loathe the Tories. I know what a decent job they did getting us out of the financial mess left behind by Thatcher, although of course they completely fucked up the ERM.
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 15, 2011 12:34:31 GMT 1
Yes, you are.
Thatcher didn't leave a financial mess and the Tories are not fucking up now.
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 15, 2011 12:48:21 GMT 1
OK.
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 15, 2011 13:08:01 GMT 1
I have facts to prove my stance.
You just bitch and moan about her being a c***.
|
|
|
Post by fgrfc_dan on Mar 15, 2011 13:26:27 GMT 1
The only facts I've seen either of you produce is that one set of debt and deficit figures which shows little more than the effects of the end of empire, two world wars and a flawed economic system on a very small country.
But at least Elt isn't trying to claim they show anything else.
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 15, 2011 13:32:04 GMT 1
I have facts to prove my stance. You just bitch and moan about her being a c***. OK
|
|
merkin
Darren Bullock Terrier
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_green.png)
Posts: 878
|
Post by merkin on Mar 15, 2011 13:34:56 GMT 1
Flawed or not, it's the global economic system that we are part of.
Why does it matter as to whether we are a small country or not?
Are you honestly telling me that you happy for the country be in the financial position that we are in now rather than the those at the end of the Thatcher/Major reigns?
If you think it doesn't matter then we might as well give up worrying about our bank balances, loan accounts and debts.
After all, these money producing trees should be ripe any time soon shouldn't they?
|
|
|
Post by markelt on Mar 15, 2011 13:39:47 GMT 1
Passes out
|
|