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Post by Chips Longhorn on Jul 18, 2019 8:13:39 GMT 1
So are we being dragged through the dirt by the bias broadcasting company now because we are associated with a betting company? I dunno .. are we ? Do you care what the BBC say given your "alternative" name for them ? |
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Post by stanton1969 on Jul 18, 2019 8:15:48 GMT 1
We gain from our raised profile. Massively. What gain is this? What do we get out of this raised profile? I'm amazed people cannot see beyond the end of their noses. Winners - PP Losers- HTFC I'l respond in kind......I'm amazed you can't see beyond the end of your nose. Frankly, I can't be bothered to add to my other responses now. There are plenty on DATM who do understand the benefits of a raised profile. Just read the thread. if you don't understand or agree......fine. |
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Post by joeyjoneslocker on Jul 18, 2019 8:17:16 GMT 1
Half of you lot may aswell just give it up.
Don’t go the the John Smiths Stadium, don’t want to promote drinking.
You might see the electronic scoreboard promoting a dodgy ‘no win
no fee’ solicitor, promoting fraud.
You might see a Golden Gamble lad, promoting gambling.
You might see a cheerleader, pure sexism.
Where does it end...,
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Post by benhomly on Jul 18, 2019 8:22:19 GMT 1
Like most people I thought  this cannot be real / must change My own view - we sorted a kit, didn’t have a sponsor signed up and when we did we didn’t it in time to get it ready to play in tonight Pp as sponsor when signed up obviously didn’t want to miss out on the new shirt being revealed... and we / they came up with an innovative way to maximise the announcement of the sponsor / kit Look is it tacky? Yes. Does it devalue is? Perhaps - but we did that with last season’s disaster out transfer window / season But waken up we’re back to being a lower half championship club with hopes to go better by doing things where we are more than the sum of our parts The summer transfer policy has shown thatWe have to do things differently to compete So what have we got out of it? A better sponsorship deal than we would have otherwise, more income and a small contribution toward our wage bill. More people will have an interest in the actual shirt, traffic visiting the website will increase, other firms may think Huddersfield will do things differently etc - some will have minimal impact at all, others will but hard to quantify Even with that design if it had said ABC limited from Huddersfield it wouldn’t have gone viral like it has... PP aren’t daft Sean Jarvis has done a fantastic job as Commercial Director over a long period of time - he was doing that pre DH and will do so post DH Fan engagement, commercial revenue, advertising boards, big screen, advertising campaigns etc I could go on He has to be innovative, raise our profile, interest in the club etc to continue to evolve / compete - we won’t always agree / like what he does but I wouldn’t want him to change. He knows what he’s doing and he’s good at it imo NB - I am assuming this is a wind up!! So trying to keep your best players from the Premiership years by slapping high transfer fees on them (and sticking to it) proves that we're aspiring to be a lower half Championship club does it? You couldn't make it up. |
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Post by malcolmbrown on Jul 18, 2019 8:23:16 GMT 1
Ok so why do gambling companies sponsor football shirts? A purely altruistic gesture I'm sure. Obviously not, but two reasons spring to mind. Brand awareness - aimed at people who already gamble but with another company - and offsetting some of your tax burden by spending what would otherwise be taxable profit on advertising, a legitimate expense. I think my point still stands. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 8:25:23 GMT 1
Half of you lot may aswell just give it up. Don’t go the the John Smiths Stadium, don’t want to promote drinking. You might see the electronic scoreboard promoting a dodgy ‘no win no fee’ solicitor, promoting fraud. You might see a Golden Gamble lad, promoting gambling. You might see a cheerleader, pure sexism. Where does it end..., It doesn't, fucking ridiculous these days.You can't do or say anything,best to just think it! |
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Post by benhomly on Jul 18, 2019 8:28:01 GMT 1
Obviously not, but two reasons spring to mind. Brand awareness - aimed at people who already gamble but with another company - and offsetting some of your tax burden by spending what would otherwise be taxable profit on advertising, a legitimate expense. I think my point still stands. Like a lot of things in life millions of people take pleasure from doing things responsibly; is everything to be banned because a small minority let things get out of hand? Stop the world I wanna get off. |
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Post by htfcfcfc on Jul 18, 2019 8:35:31 GMT 1
Yes, I'm sure people are going to look at our shirt and think - "Haha what a bunch of jokers those Paddy Power guys are! I enjoyed that prank so much, I think I'll take up gambling" 🙄 Ok so why do gambling companies sponsor football shirts? A purely altruistic gesture I'm sure. Probably more to ensure that gamblers use them over others in a very competitive market. And yes, new customers are I’m sure welcome also. |
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Tiro
Jimmy Glazzard Terrier
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Post by Tiro on Jul 18, 2019 8:38:31 GMT 1
Half of you lot may aswell just give it up. Don’t go the the John Smiths Stadium, don’t want to promote drinking. You might see the electronic scoreboard promoting a dodgy ‘no win no fee’ solicitor, promoting fraud. You might see a Golden Gamble lad, promoting gambling. You might see a cheerleader, pure sexism. Where does it end..., In the lords house, brother. Repent! |
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Post by In sooth- - on Jul 18, 2019 8:39:35 GMT 1
What I would like to know is whether we approached PP first or vice versa.
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Jul 18, 2019 8:47:34 GMT 1
I don't know how old you are, but you sound a little naive, unless you work for PP? I don't work for PP. That's a bit of a lazy and cheap response, if you don't mind me saying. If you think that the world is the same as it was and will continue to be so then I could accuse you of being naive as well. It doesn't matter how old I am. Completely irrelevant. But, maybe if I were 15 I could emulate the Youtube millionaires that now exist at that age, but obviously the digital economy doesn't really exist so there would be no point. They're obviously just lies.
Of course the world has changed, I just find it strange that you're pushing the agenda a little. Apologies if I touched a nerve there, but I'm sure you also appreciate that companies are pretty savvy at getting staff to use social media to their benefit, fake negative reviews on competitor website etc.I think you'll find it's the other way round. It's a bookie who now has a massive online presence. The internet is a fundamental part of PP's business. It would be logical to assume that over time they'll move more from "mortar" to "clicks". Businesses like that usually have a forensically worked out blend of both. Look at what has happened to banks. The internet is where they capture new customers. Some will go to shops, some will remain on-line. It is a damn sight cheaper and more scaleable to do business online than it is in a shop. So I think it's fair to argue they've transitioned to being an internet company that has shops. 99% of people are more likely to see PP on the internet and place a bet than they are to a) get on a bus and go to a shop if they know where one is, or b) happen to pass one in the street and walk in.
Your point was that they're an internet co. who now do gambling. They were formed from buying up some Irish high st bookies 30 yrs or so ago & as you rightly say have adjusted their business model like 95% of the planet whose business model allows them to take advantage of that.If this is the new economy & it's one that involves members of the public spending their money for no return then that's not a bad model if you're the person receiving the cash... (you'll have to excuse my naivety but I'm sure that bookies take more in than they pay out). Unless I'm mistaken, that's the business model of all companies. They aim to have higher revenues than outgoings. Or they don't survive. Am I still the naive one here? It happens to be that the business of betting involves winners and losers. Some people will get a return from betting, and some people won't. Some people don't bet at all. Anyone who does it has a choice. I'm not saying it's issue free, but there wasn't the same furore around Rekorderlig and there are plenty of alcoholics out there. Legislation, codes of conduct, etc are all there to protect people. If it weren't PP, it would be someone else. The market exists. By the way, I don't bet, I never have, and I never will.
Glad to hear that you don't bet, but my point being, is that you spend money with other profit making companies every day, but the difference here is that you actually go home and eat the food you've bought, wear the clothes, go into the cinema and watch the film, e.g. there's a tangible trading of goods and services. The only other market that's akin to gambling is probably high risk investment portfolios. Most of us will have a default toehold in stocks & shares through our pension funds, but the majority probably don't opt for the high risk/reward plans because it's probably more like throwing your hard earned at a bookie.
Unless of course this woman received all this cash from shareholders showering her with cash? edition.cnn.com/2018/11/22/football/denise-coates-salary-gambling-bet-365-business-spt-intl/index.htmlWe're not sponsored by Bet365. I don't know if PP are a part of Bet365, so if you can enlighten me, fine. I agree that her payout is an egregious use of her position in my eyes and probably many others. Doesn't mean to say PP will operate in the same way. There are plenty of other businesses (especially in the finance sector) who reward with massive bonuses, pensions, etc for FAILURE. Plenty of stories after the crash 10 years ago to substantiate this.I was merely pointing out an extreme to highlight the huge profits these organisations make. I'm not sure how the Bet365 thing was received at Stoke, but I expect there will have been more acceptance because it's actually a locally run organisation, so there will have been local jobs created on the back of it (not just a couple of betting shop Mgrs). The point with betting companies is the undercurrent of misery they work very hard at trying to suppress. The FOBT stake reduction was fought by them with claims of job losses & they were pretty pissed off that they lost that despite all the lobbying that would have been going on in high places. Similar to the £100m bung they offered to try and avoid further constraints on them, disguised as them becoming more morally responsible. That's rising to £100m over a 5yr period as well, not from day one. Last yr they collectively contributed £10m to this, which as I'm sure you'll appreciate is a drop in the ocean for just this CEO's remuneration, even though she is an extreme case. Maybe a good way to see the balance of this voluntary levy is to compare it with how much they collectively spent on marketing last yr?
I agree with your last bit - there's a lot of corruption and malpractice in other industries & in finance that's corruption and market manipulation that harms us all, but probably in more subtle ways than the gambling industry trying to squeeze that few quid out of your hand.
Over 30yrs ago I was doing some work at a Bingo Hall, one of the big ones, Mecca or such like. To give you an idea how they operate. Once the afternoon session had finished and the old dears were streaming out heading for their buses etc., they put on a daily raffle at reception. Not a charity raffle, just a raffle to entice these poor buggers out of their last couple of quid, possibly their bus fare home. The prizes? A frozen chicken, a box of biscuits etc. That's the sort of shithousery you're dealing with here & that's a bingo hall of 30+ years ago...
I'll address your points individually. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 8:54:29 GMT 1
Like most people I thought this cannot be real / must change My own view - we sorted a kit, didn’t have a sponsor signed up and when we did we didn’t it in time to get it ready to play in tonight Pp as sponsor when signed up obviously didn’t want to miss out on the new shirt being revealed... and we / they came up with an innovative way to maximise the announcement of the sponsor / kit Look is it tacky? Yes. Does it devalue is? Perhaps - but we did that with last season’s disaster out transfer window / season But waken up we’re back to being a lower half championship club with hopes to go better by doing things where we are more than the sum of our parts The summer transfer policy has shown thatWe have to do things differently to compete So what have we got out of it? A better sponsorship deal than we would have otherwise, more income and a small contribution toward our wage bill. More people will have an interest in the actual shirt, traffic visiting the website will increase, other firms may think Huddersfield will do things differently etc - some will have minimal impact at all, others will but hard to quantify Even with that design if it had said ABC limited from Huddersfield it wouldn’t have gone viral like it has... PP aren’t daft Sean Jarvis has done a fantastic job as Commercial Director over a long period of time - he was doing that pre DH and will do so post DH Fan engagement, commercial revenue, advertising boards, big screen, advertising campaigns etc I could go on He has to be innovative, raise our profile, interest in the club etc to continue to evolve / compete - we won’t always agree / like what he does but I wouldn’t want him to change. He knows what he’s doing and he’s good at it imo NB - I am assuming this is a wind up!! So trying to keep your best players from the Premiership years by slapping high transfer fees on them (and sticking to it) proves that we're aspiring to be a lower half Championship club does it? You couldn't make it up. Beat me to it, well said! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 8:55:53 GMT 1
We gain from our raised profile. Massively. Aye not difficult to understand is it? Although some seemingly struggling to grasp it. Not only is this the biggest main sponsorship deal we’ve ever had (outside the top flight), how many more followers have we gained today, how many more clicks on the website, this all equals revenue. I’d be surprised if we didn’t have a cut of the PP revenue from their website clicks/video views given we are the vehicle for the campaign. I’d also be very surprised if we didn’t sell the fake kit as well as the main kit, it’ll fly off the shelves trust me. Really isn’t difficult to understand. This  It’s clear some people don’t understand how modern day Marketing works; a lot of fans can’t comprehend how much money is in social media. The positive knock-on effect of this is other companies will want a slice of the pie when they see the media attention we receive and want sponsorship deals (all publicity is good publicity). Bear in mind all of this is within a week we still have a whole year to go. A laugh at the clubs expense? Perhaps, but ultimately we are a business. Improving finances means improving the chances of keeping our star players. Thankfully two multi-million pound companies understand more than fans on an internet forum. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 9:20:03 GMT 1
Aye not difficult to understand is it? Although some seemingly struggling to grasp it. Not only is this the biggest main sponsorship deal we’ve ever had (outside the top flight), how many more followers have we gained today, how many more clicks on the website, this all equals revenue. I’d be surprised if we didn’t have a cut of the PP revenue from their website clicks/video views given we are the vehicle for the campaign. I’d also be very surprised if we didn’t sell the fake kit as well as the main kit, it’ll fly off the shelves trust me. Really isn’t difficult to understand. This It’s clear some people don’t understand how modern day Marketing works; a lot of fans can’t comprehend how much money is in social media. The positive knock-on effect of this is other companies will want a slice of the pie when they see the media attention we receive and want sponsorship deals (all publicity is good publicity). Bear in mind all of this is within a week we still have a whole year to go. A laugh at the clubs expense? Perhaps, but ultimately we are a business. Improving finances means improving the chances of keeping our star players. Thankfully two multi-million pound companies understand more than fans on an internet forum. All hypothetically correct, but i'll be interested to see how it unfolds. A few more tables sold in the White Rose suite? Match day sponsorship ? Huddersfield 125? What else?
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Post by canuckterrier99 on Jul 18, 2019 9:48:33 GMT 1
Why not get people talking by releasing a totally awesome shirt to begin with rather than all this palaver?
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Post by explorer on Jul 18, 2019 10:02:53 GMT 1
Obviously not, but two reasons spring to mind. Brand awareness - aimed at people who already gamble but with another company - and offsetting some of your tax burden by spending what would otherwise be taxable profit on advertising, a legitimate expense. I think my point still stands. I don’t think so. Did we all rush out to buy a Panasonic telly, ease our aches and pains with Radian B, drink Greenal beer, recruit our staff from Prime Time, get our wheels balanced at Central Tyres and switch to Pulse radio because they sponsored Town? |
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Post by TomTheTerrier on Jul 18, 2019 10:07:53 GMT 1
Why not get people talking by releasing a totally awesome shirt to begin with rather than all this palaver? Because nobody outside Huddersfield would care even if we released the best shirt in the history of football. |
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Post by pharaohx on Jul 18, 2019 10:09:36 GMT 1
Under Town's dizzying spell I bought a Panasonic vac. Still got it.
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town1
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Post by town1 on Jul 18, 2019 10:12:47 GMT 1
Under Town's dizzying spell I bought a Panasonic vac. Still got it. I bought a Panasonic TV but I won’t be buying a Paddy Power shirt. |
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Post by cheesyhtfc on Jul 18, 2019 10:30:36 GMT 1
For me, the ideal time to have revealed the "real" shirt would have been as the players came out for the second half yesterday. That way, they would have had maximum "gotcha" points, and it would have been obvious to all that this was all planned. As the FA have now got involved, the impact of any reveal may be lessened slightly, as some (a small minority, but some nonetheless) will think that the change was forced on us. Not a disaster, but a bit of a faux pas, in my view.
Leaving that aside, though, it may be that the club thinks this sort of thing aligns with brand - we are a working class club who want to have a bit of a laugh and can take it as well as dish it. If so, I don't think that's a bad thing, as joining with a social media force whose marketing strategy revolves around banter may be the best way to get that brand across. If that is not the intention, and this sort of thing doesn't fit with our brand, then SJ isn't doing his job properly. Bearing in mind what PH said on Monday, I think that this sort of thing does align with our brand, and we will find that it is only one part of a number of things that the club is doing as part of a rebrand.
What I think the club has realised, however, is that even with the PL exposure, very few people know anything about us. How many times over the last three years have we heard players (and managers) say "I'd never heard of Huddersfield before they approached me"? Put two clubs in front of someone and, all else being equal, they will likely pick the club that they know more about, which I suspect is rarely us.
There are (broadly speaking) two ways to make yourself known. Either you start winning stuff, or you do develop an appealing identity. We've clearly gone for the latter. In doing so, I suspect the club have looked at the social media of young footballers to see what they are doing and who they are following, and I suspect it was full of "banter" and spoof stuff. Perhaps the club are thinking that if they go down that route, they will get potential signings watching our stuff, following us, and becoming aware of us long before we approach them. Our sales pitch is then straightforward - play for us, we'll pay you a fortune, and you'll have a laugh whilst you're here. Making allowances for the fact that I was born in 1991, I imagine it's a modern (PC) version of the Crazy Gang; well known for their antics, but nevertheless well known.
This is all on top of the commercial opportunities that increased exposure can bring.
I suspect that this is the first step of our attempt to rebrand ourselves - get people keeping an eye out for what we do next. Once we have people watching us, we start to show off the fact that we remain true to our working class roots. Nobody would be interested in that aspect, though, if they weren't already keeping an eye out for us.
When we were the "family club", people complained that we were too nice on the pitch. When we had our "terrier identity", we were hard working and industrious, but people complained that we had a small team mentality, which filtered onto the pitch. The club's identity often filters into what we see on the pitch. Perhaps the aim with the "working class club" identity is to foster a hard working and industrious approach where players are encouraged to enjoy themselves as well?
Who knows? We are only beginning to roll out our rebrand. In hindsight, it may turn out to be genius, or a disaster, or somewhere in-between, but I can't fault the club for trying a new approach.
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Post by Champers on Jul 18, 2019 10:33:16 GMT 1
Aye not difficult to understand is it? Although some seemingly struggling to grasp it. Not only is this the biggest main sponsorship deal we’ve ever had (outside the top flight), how many more followers have we gained today, how many more clicks on the website, this all equals revenue. I’d be surprised if we didn’t have a cut of the PP revenue from their website clicks/video views given we are the vehicle for the campaign. I’d also be very surprised if we didn’t sell the fake kit as well as the main kit, it’ll fly off the shelves trust me. Really isn’t difficult to understand. This It’s clear some people don’t understand how modern day Marketing works; a lot of fans can’t comprehend how much money is in social media. The positive knock-on effect of this is other companies will want a slice of the pie when they see the media attention we receive and want sponsorship deals (all publicity is good publicity). Bear in mind all of this is within a week we still have a whole year to go. A laugh at the clubs expense? Perhaps, but ultimately we are a business. Improving finances means improving the chances of keeping our star players. Thankfully two multi-million pound companies understand more than fans on an internet forum. Just replying with a 👍🏼 as it's not possible to like your post twice. Just a shame it'll still fly over the heads of many who will only ever see social media as a mere annoyance. |
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Jul 18, 2019 11:07:39 GMT 1
Aye not difficult to understand is it? Although some seemingly struggling to grasp it. Not only is this the biggest main sponsorship deal we’ve ever had (outside the top flight), how many more followers have we gained today, how many more clicks on the website, this all equals revenue. I’d be surprised if we didn’t have a cut of the PP revenue from their website clicks/video views given we are the vehicle for the campaign. I’d also be very surprised if we didn’t sell the fake kit as well as the main kit, it’ll fly off the shelves trust me. Really isn’t difficult to understand. This It’s clear some people don’t understand how modern day Marketing works; a lot of fans can’t comprehend how much money is in social media. The positive knock-on effect of this is other companies will want a slice of the pie when they see the media attention we receive and want sponsorship deals (all publicity is good publicity). Bear in mind all of this is within a week we still have a whole year to go. A laugh at the clubs expense? Perhaps, but ultimately we are a business. Improving finances means improving the chances of keeping our star players. Thankfully two multi-million pound companies understand more than fans on an internet forum. Of course people understand how modern day marketing works - this is more about ethics for me. There's always a balance to strike with sponsorship about how ethical vs the benefits it provides you. I actually think this might put some folk of buying a shirt, particularly if they've young kids, or kids who are at an age where they understand social media and this lad bantz etc. It was all a bit different with OPE. Maybe we could have offset the PP deal by having the shorts sponsored by Rab C Nesbitt and the socks by Paul Calf?  |
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Jul 18, 2019 11:14:02 GMT 1
This It’s clear some people don’t understand how modern day Marketing works; a lot of fans can’t comprehend how much money is in social media. The positive knock-on effect of this is other companies will want a slice of the pie when they see the media attention we receive and want sponsorship deals (all publicity is good publicity). Bear in mind all of this is within a week we still have a whole year to go. A laugh at the clubs expense? Perhaps, but ultimately we are a business. Improving finances means improving the chances of keeping our star players. Thankfully two multi-million pound companies understand more than fans on an internet forum. Just replying with a 👍🏼 as it's not possible to like your post twice. Just a shame it'll still fly over the heads of many who will only ever see social media as a mere annoyance. Social media, as with many other things, you choose what you use. I think it's a little patronising to suggest it flies over the heads of some people, presumably referring to it being an age thing? Remember, what you see today is just another part of our ongoing evolution that was set in motion by what are now a bunch of old folk... |
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Post by Mastercracker on Jul 18, 2019 11:15:10 GMT 1
Why not get people talking by releasing a totally awesome shirt to begin with rather than all this palaver? Because nobody outside Huddersfield would care even if we released the best shirt in the history of football. This shows exactly why... 11 comments, 26 retweets, 149 likes at the time of posting. 4600 comments, 1400 retweets, 3700 likes |
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Post by themanfromatlantis on Jul 18, 2019 11:26:15 GMT 1
Because nobody outside Huddersfield would care even if we released the best shirt in the history of football. This shows exactly why... 11 comments, 26 retweets, 149 likes at the time of posting. 4600 comments, 1400 retweets, 3700 likes Exactly, but who benefits from that exposure? There won't be a surge in ticket sales will there? What's the material impact for us? I just think we've walked into this a little bit eyes wide shut that's all & it's the ethics of the industry we're promoting that doesn't sit comfortably with me. You can accuse me of being all Mary Whitehouse if you want, but please don't accuse me of having had a charisma bypass or not having a sense of humour... It's worked for PP though - they'll probably have paid for the first 6 months of this agreement in the first 72h of this press release... |
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Post by Mecha Corte on Jul 18, 2019 11:29:31 GMT 1
As I’ve said previously, we didn’t need to market it or pull any sort of publicity stunt. It won’t sell any more of the actual shirt. Paddy Power are the only ones who stand to gain from this. How can people not see that? Yes of course our shirt sponsor will benefit from this, surely that is why anyone pays to advertise either on shirts, on pitch side hoardings or in match programes etc etc, however our football club also gets increased exposure. Before we got to the PL I would meet football fans all around the country while being a wagon driver, 90% of the time unless they supported a team in the same division as us they would have heard about Huddersfield Town but know next to nothing about them, not even what division we were in, we've been a big news story for 24 hours and as a consequence our profile is raised. I doubt we will sell any extra shirts in the back of it but we are a bit better known now, where's the harm ? And for those who say we're a laughing stock, get a grip, it's a spoof shirt but FFS it's not as bad as some of the genuine ones we've had in the past or other teams past kits, Hull City's tiger stripes for example. People saying we need Dean Hoyle back (he's still got a say and 25% stake), I'm not going to renew my season card etcetc come on, get real - Herbert Chapman our greatest ever manager was reknowed for his innovations, numbers on shirts, teams coming out together for the Cup Final and the like, you can bet your bottom dollar he would have approved. |
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Post by canuckterrier99 on Jul 18, 2019 11:30:55 GMT 1
Because nobody outside Huddersfield would care even if we released the best shirt in the history of football. This shows exactly why... 11 comments, 26 retweets, 149 likes at the time of posting. 4600 comments, 1400 retweets, 3700 likes Seems our shirt wasn't the most hideous one released yesterday after all |
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Post by lankystreak on Jul 18, 2019 11:32:26 GMT 1
Because nobody outside Huddersfield would care even if we released the best shirt in the history of football. This shows exactly why... 11 comments, 26 retweets, 149 likes at the time of posting. 4600 comments, 1400 retweets, 3700 likes I’m pretty sure if we’d had a new kit covered in racist bile it would have got a lot of retweets and discussion too...... That’s the point that some of us are trying to make, where do you draw the line in the hunt for engagement on social media? |
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Post by kennyk2 on Jul 18, 2019 11:33:35 GMT 1
This shows exactly why... 11 comments, 26 retweets, 149 likes at the time of posting. 4600 comments, 1400 retweets, 3700 likes Seems our shirt wasn't the most hideous one released yesterday after all I wonder what the 3700 people were liking - the shirt or the piss take? |
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Post by Mastercracker on Jul 18, 2019 11:42:05 GMT 1
Never mind, I'm out.
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this cannot be real / must change 
