FFP

[mrg]

Can someone tell me what town have done to get themselves in a situation where they cant spend? I know the club were placed under a sanction for filing incorrect accounts, but i thought this was pertaining to phils compnlany going under and not getting the figures in on time?

The club made a loss of £2.1m last financial year and a profit the year before, how does that put the club near a £39m loss over 3 years? Explain as if you were telling an 8 year old. Maths not my superpower.

[morleyterrier]

Good luck OP seeking clarification.

[huddersfc]

The problem is that we never know the current projected profit/loss for the current season and we don’t know what we have to play with. You have to wait a year for those accounts and by then everyone is already asking and speculating about the next season.

It’s clear that we can’t expect lots of money to be spent, if any this year. But will next season be too late if we don’t strengthen properly. I don’t believe that Kev would take over the club if his ambition was windows like we currently are having.

[Million Dollar Babies]

Whether it is FFP or some budget restriction imposed due to having new owners (same rules not apply to Birmingham?) it would be interesting to know if the financial penalty for breaking them is greater than what the financial impact of relegation would be

[mrg]

Aug 5, 2023 18:32:18 GMT 1 morleyterrier said:

Good luck OP seeking clarification.

🤣 cheers morley, tbh im puttimg a case together to kick fuck out of someone (anyone) at the FA unless someone can come up with a proper explaination.

Ok, bad plan, id still like a simple explaination. Anyone?

[mrg]

Aug 5, 2023 18:41:31 GMT 1 huddersfc said:

The problem is that we never know the current projected profit/loss for the current season and we don’t know what we have to play with. You have to wait a year for those accounts and by then everyone is already asking and speculating about the next season.

It’s clear that we can’t expect lots of money to be spent, if any this year. But will next season be too late if we don’t strengthen properly. I don’t believe that Kev would take over the club if his ambition was windows like we currently are having.

The fact we couldnt sign hungbo who surely didnt go for £1m worries me tbh.

[Detective Boyle]

Aug 5, 2023 18:45:42 GMT 1 mrg said:

Aug 5, 2023 18:41:31 GMT 1 huddersfc said:

The problem is that we never know the current projected profit/loss for the current season and we don’t know what we have to play with. You have to wait a year for those accounts and by then everyone is already asking and speculating about the next season.

It’s clear that we can’t expect lots of money to be spent, if any this year. But will next season be too late if we don’t strengthen properly. I don’t believe that Kev would take over the club if his ambition was windows like we currently are having.

The fact we couldnt sign hungbo who surely didnt go for £1m worries me tbh.

If I'm honest, I can understand this one. Hungbo has great potential but was hit and miss. If we're spending money, it should be spent on consistency. We're crying out for a player who can control the game in the middle, for instance.

[mrg]

Aug 5, 2023 18:50:21 GMT 1 Detective Boyle said:

Aug 5, 2023 18:45:42 GMT 1 mrg said:

The fact we couldnt sign hungbo who surely didnt go for £1m worries me tbh.

If I'm honest, I can understand this one. Hungbo has great potential but was hit and miss. If we're spending money, it should be spent on consistency. We're crying out for a player who can control the game in the middle, for instance.

He won us 9 points all on his own. Thats worth 750k surely? Him and yuta is over a 1/4 of the points required. I get we need a midfielder at striker but for a squad, i guess thats why id like to clearly understand what our ffp issue is, how are town even close to losing £39m over 3 years?

[tepidterrier]

Aug 5, 2023 18:50:21 GMT 1 Detective Boyle said:

Aug 5, 2023 18:45:42 GMT 1 mrg said:

The fact we couldnt sign hungbo who surely didnt go for £1m worries me tbh.

If I'm honest, I can understand this one. Hungbo has great potential but was hit and miss. If we're spending money, it should be spent on consistency. We're crying out for a player who can control the game in the middle, for instance.

He's as close to consistency as we could've got. He went for 500k or thereabouts I believe, which spells serious trouble if that priced us out. I thought that for a player with his first proper spell at Championship level he did brilliantly. Inconsistent yes, but most 23 year old wingers/forwards are. Warnock didn't trust him as much as his actual end product merited. I don't think we will sign a better player this season.

[Sparrow]

Aug 5, 2023 18:28:18 GMT 1 mrg said:

Can someone tell me what town have done to get themselves in a situation where they cant spend? I know the club were placed under a sanction for filing incorrect accounts, but i thought this was pertaining to phils compnlany going under and not getting the figures in on time?

The club made a loss of £2.1m last financial year and a profit the year before, how does that put the club near a £39m loss over 3 years? Explain as if you were telling an 8 year old. Maths not my superpower.

The season we made a profit doesn’t count towards the current 3 year period

Year 1 of the 3 we made a loss of £3.8m. That was the last published accounts and the last season we got Parachute payments

Year 2 ended 30th June 2023. The accounts haven’t been published yet. but assuming a similar loss, then factoring in no parachute payments, paying of 2 Head Coaches, Hiring Warnock and Jepson, making loads of signings in the Jan window that weren’t budgeted for etc, you can probably guess at about a £17m loss

So you’re at about £21m loss going into the final year. Which is this year. If we lose a similar figure to last year, we’d be close to the FFP limit of £39m

Please don’t take that £17m loss last year as fact, but I can see that it might not be a million miles off.

[Million Dollar Babies]

Aug 5, 2023 19:19:47 GMT 1 Sparrow said:

Aug 5, 2023 18:28:18 GMT 1 mrg said:

Can someone tell me what town have done to get themselves in a situation where they cant spend? I know the club were placed under a sanction for filing incorrect accounts, but i thought this was pertaining to phils compnlany going under and not getting the figures in on time?

The club made a loss of £2.1m last financial year and a profit the year before, how does that put the club near a £39m loss over 3 years? Explain as if you were telling an 8 year old. Maths not my superpower.

The season we made a profit doesn’t count towards the current 3 year period

Year 1 of the 3 we made a loss of £3.8m. That was the last published accounts and the last season we got Parachute payments

Year 2 ended 30th June 2023. The accounts haven’t been published yet. but assuming a similar loss, then factoring in no parachute payments, paying of 2 Head Coaches, Hiring Warnock and Jepson, making loads of signings in the Jan window that weren’t budgeted for etc, you can probably guess at about a £17m loss

So you’re at about £21m loss going into the final year. Which is this year. If we lose a similar figure to last year, we’d be close to the FFP limit of £39m

Please don’t take that £17m loss last year as fact, but I can see that it might not be a million miles off.

Our wage bill right now can't be more than £7-8 million. With the installments coming in from O'Brien, Toffolo, Grant, Camara, Coady etc there is no way we can be heading for a loss at all never mind a large one. Surely there is scope to do more than we have so far

[mrg]

Aug 5, 2023 19:19:47 GMT 1 Sparrow said:

Aug 5, 2023 18:28:18 GMT 1 mrg said:

Can someone tell me what town have done to get themselves in a situation where they cant spend? I know the club were placed under a sanction for filing incorrect accounts, but i thought this was pertaining to phils compnlany going under and not getting the figures in on time?

The club made a loss of £2.1m last financial year and a profit the year before, how does that put the club near a £39m loss over 3 years? Explain as if you were telling an 8 year old. Maths not my superpower.

The season we made a profit doesn’t count towards the current 3 year period

Year 1 of the 3 we made a loss of £3.8m. That was the last published accounts and the last season we got Parachute payments

Year 2 ended 30th June 2023. The accounts haven’t been published yet. but assuming a similar loss, then factoring in no parachute payments, paying of 2 Head Coaches, Hiring Warnock and Jepson, making loads of signings in the Jan window that weren’t budgeted for etc, you can probably guess at about a £17m loss

So you’re at about £21m loss going into the final year. Which is this year. If we lose a similar figure to last year, we’d be close to the FFP limit of £39m

Please don’t take that £17m loss last year as fact, but I can see that it might not be a million miles off.

Thank you mate, makes sense now. Wage bill is at least £12m but still not buying someone age 23 for 500k who just got us 9 points makes no sense at all, very concerning.

[nicovaesen]

It does need clarifying though as we seemed to have spent next to fuck all compared to some clubs like Luton etc and even clubs under embargoes so what has actually happened at our club we’ve been penny pinching for years now so that’s got to have made up for the dross we signed in the second prem season. Not one decent signing since the prem let alone a marquee signing. Schindler at 1.8 million seems as million years ago now

[Up the Duff.]

Aug 5, 2023 19:19:47 GMT 1 Sparrow said:

Aug 5, 2023 18:28:18 GMT 1 mrg said:

Can someone tell me what town have done to get themselves in a situation where they cant spend? I know the club were placed under a sanction for filing incorrect accounts, but i thought this was pertaining to phils compnlany going under and not getting the figures in on time?

The club made a loss of £2.1m last financial year and a profit the year before, how does that put the club near a £39m loss over 3 years? Explain as if you were telling an 8 year old. Maths not my superpower.

The season we made a profit doesn’t count towards the current 3 year period

Year 1 of the 3 we made a loss of £3.8m. That was the last published accounts and the last season we got Parachute payments

Year 2 ended 30th June 2023. The accounts haven’t been published yet. but assuming a similar loss, then factoring in no parachute payments, paying of 2 Head Coaches, Hiring Warnock and Jepson, making loads of signings in the Jan window that weren’t budgeted for etc, you can probably guess at about a £17m loss

So you’re at about £21m loss going into the final year. Which is this year. If we lose a similar figure to last year, we’d be close to the FFP limit of £39m

Please don’t take that £17m loss last year as fact, but I can see that it might not be a million miles off.

Didn't Hoyle say the projected losses he would need to fund, after incoming transfer fees, were £5m. £10m without any transfer income. Therefore we should be well within the £39m.

[Up the Duff.]

I am sure I recall Nagle suggesting that should we be in a position to push on, with a couple of signings potentially making the difference, then that was a possibility. I think he referenced this happening at Sacramento.

I hope we don't make the same mistake as last year, where we thought the squad was good enough to stay up, before quickly finding after the window had shut that it wasn't. If we have some funds available within the budget please strengthen now.

[rockwall]

Aug 5, 2023 19:46:22 GMT 1 Up the Duff. said:

Aug 5, 2023 19:19:47 GMT 1 Sparrow said:

The season we made a profit doesn’t count towards the current 3 year period

Year 1 of the 3 we made a loss of £3.8m. That was the last published accounts and the last season we got Parachute payments

Year 2 ended 30th June 2023. The accounts haven’t been published yet. but assuming a similar loss, then factoring in no parachute payments, paying of 2 Head Coaches, Hiring Warnock and Jepson, making loads of signings in the Jan window that weren’t budgeted for etc, you can probably guess at about a £17m loss

So you’re at about £21m loss going into the final year. Which is this year. If we lose a similar figure to last year, we’d be close to the FFP limit of £39m

Please don’t take that £17m loss last year as fact, but I can see that it might not be a million miles off.

Didn't Hoyle say the projected losses he would need to fund, after incoming transfer fees, were £5m. £10m without any transfer income. Therefore we should be well within the £39m.

Wasn't that 5m a month?

[rothwellterrier]

Aug 5, 2023 20:03:05 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Aug 5, 2023 19:46:22 GMT 1 Up the Duff. said:

Didn't Hoyle say the projected losses he would need to fund, after incoming transfer fees, were £5m. £10m without any transfer income. Therefore we should be well within the £39m.

Wasn't that 5m a month?

No, per season.

[Up the Duff.]

Aug 5, 2023 20:03:05 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Aug 5, 2023 19:46:22 GMT 1 Up the Duff. said:

Didn't Hoyle say the projected losses he would need to fund, after incoming transfer fees, were £5m. £10m without any transfer income. Therefore we should be well within the £39m.

Wasn't that 5m a month?

That would be £60m a year Rockwall. Definitely a year.

[rockwall]

Aug 5, 2023 20:05:47 GMT 1 Up the Duff. said:

Aug 5, 2023 20:03:05 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Wasn't that 5m a month?

That would be £60m a year Rockwall. Definitely a year.

That many numbers flying around!

[incognito]

Aug 5, 2023 19:19:47 GMT 1 Sparrow said:

Aug 5, 2023 18:28:18 GMT 1 mrg said:

Can someone tell me what town have done to get themselves in a situation where they cant spend? I know the club were placed under a sanction for filing incorrect accounts, but i thought this was pertaining to phils compnlany going under and not getting the figures in on time?

The club made a loss of £2.1m last financial year and a profit the year before, how does that put the club near a £39m loss over 3 years? Explain as if you were telling an 8 year old. Maths not my superpower.

The season we made a profit doesn’t count towards the current 3 year period

Year 1 of the 3 we made a loss of £3.8m. That was the last published accounts and the last season we got Parachute payments

Year 2 ended 30th June 2023. The accounts haven’t been published yet. but assuming a similar loss, then factoring in no parachute payments, paying of 2 Head Coaches, Hiring Warnock and Jepson, making loads of signings in the Jan window that weren’t budgeted for etc, you can probably guess at about a £17m loss

So you’re at about £21m loss going into the final year. Which is this year. If we lose a similar figure to last year, we’d be close to the FFP limit of £39m

Please don’t take that £17m loss last year as fact, but I can see that it might not be a million miles off.

It's worth bearing in mind that the FFP P&S number is not directly based upon the pre-tax loss, but on 'Adjusted Earnings before Tax' with certain costs excluded.

Having gone through the exercise following the release of the accounts last month (Link), I'm not personally anticipating a '22/23 loss in that order of magnitude, largely thanks to the profit on player sales last summer.

I do expect this season's loss to be substantial, regardless of future inbound transfer activity, but not to the extent that we will be in danger of troubling the P&S upper loss threshold any time soon.

[royrace]

Aug 5, 2023 19:59:55 GMT 1 Up the Duff. said:

I am sure I recall Nagle suggesting that should we be in a position to push on, with a couple of signings potentially making the difference, then that was a possibility. I think he referenced this happening at Sacramento.

I hope we don't make the same mistake as last year, where we thought the squad was good enough to stay up, before quickly finding after the window had shut that it wasn't. If we have some funds available within the budget please strengthen now.

KN has Warnock, Ronnie, the new CEO and DoF , plenty of knowledge there. There can surely be no way they think they squad is good enough! It's miles off and padded out with B team players with failed loans with clubs from the lower leagues.

The fact they haven't been able to bring anyone in means they're not paying enough you would think. Pretty simple really. Question is why.

[robinvar]

If new ownership does have money to invest then break the rules if they are so restrictive. Well lose more than 6 points or so if we don't strengthen that squad and first team. Others must sail pretty close to the wind.

[harris]

Aug 6, 2023 10:36:09 GMT 1 robinvar said:

If new ownership does have money to invest then break the rules if they are so restrictive. Well lose more than 6 points or so if we don't strengthen that squad and first team. Others must sail pretty close to the wind.

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[rockwall]

Aug 6, 2023 10:36:09 GMT 1 robinvar said:

If new ownership does have money to invest then break the rules if they are so restrictive. Well lose more than 6 points or so if we don't strengthen that squad and first team. Others must sail pretty close to the wind.

Dumbest post this weekend

[crux]

If Sheffield United buy Lewis O'brien for the reported £10M asking fee from Florist, presumably Florist will have to pay the full outstanding balance on his transfer fee to us.

Won't this solve any supposed(*) FFP issues for this season?


* I still think the EFL restrictions are more to do with the fact that we were reportedly heading for administration last season.

[robinvar]

Aug 6, 2023 10:46:52 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Aug 6, 2023 10:36:09 GMT 1 robinvar said:

If new ownership does have money to invest then break the rules if they are so restrictive. Well lose more than 6 points or so if we don't strengthen that squad and first team. Others must sail pretty close to the wind.

Dumbest post this weekend

If the budget was perhaps submitted by others then why can't we vary in light of new ownership? But hey I'm dumb so I'll leave the debate to others.

[waggers]

Aug 5, 2023 19:19:47 GMT 1 Sparrow said:

Aug 5, 2023 18:28:18 GMT 1 mrg said:

Can someone tell me what town have done to get themselves in a situation where they cant spend? I know the club were placed under a sanction for filing incorrect accounts, but i thought this was pertaining to phils compnlany going under and not getting the figures in on time?

The club made a loss of £2.1m last financial year and a profit the year before, how does that put the club near a £39m loss over 3 years? Explain as if you were telling an 8 year old. Maths not my superpower.

The season we made a profit doesn’t count towards the current 3 year period

Year 1 of the 3 we made a loss of £3.8m. That was the last published accounts and the last season we got Parachute payments

Year 2 ended 30th June 2023. The accounts haven’t been published yet. but assuming a similar loss, then factoring in no parachute payments, paying of 2 Head Coaches, Hiring Warnock and Jepson, making loads of signings in the Jan window that weren’t budgeted for etc, you can probably guess at about a £17m loss

So you’re at about £21m loss going into the final year. Which is this year. If we lose a similar figure to last year, we’d be close to the FFP limit of £39m

Please don’t take that £17m loss last year as fact, but I can see that it might not be a million miles off.

I reckon this post gives a bit of clarity to the situation. We spent a wedge last season which unless you get your calculator out it's easy to underestimate.

[rockwall]

Aug 6, 2023 11:23:07 GMT 1 robinvar said:

Aug 6, 2023 10:46:52 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Dumbest post this weekend

If the budget was perhaps submitted by others then why can't we vary in light of new ownership? But hey I'm dumb so I'll leave the debate to others.

Because it is the rules...

[harris]

Aug 6, 2023 11:23:07 GMT 1 robinvar said:

Aug 6, 2023 10:46:52 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Dumbest post this weekend

If the budget was perhaps submitted by others then why can't we vary in light of new ownership? But hey I'm dumb so I'll leave the debate to others.

In all fairness, you’ve just suggested we break the rules and take a points deduction to splash the cash. Which wouldn’t even guarantee any better results, and probably lead to transfer embargo’s and other issues for years.

[Sparrow]

Aug 6, 2023 9:18:45 GMT 1 incognito said:

Aug 5, 2023 19:19:47 GMT 1 Sparrow said:

The season we made a profit doesn’t count towards the current 3 year period

Year 1 of the 3 we made a loss of £3.8m. That was the last published accounts and the last season we got Parachute payments

Year 2 ended 30th June 2023. The accounts haven’t been published yet. but assuming a similar loss, then factoring in no parachute payments, paying of 2 Head Coaches, Hiring Warnock and Jepson, making loads of signings in the Jan window that weren’t budgeted for etc, you can probably guess at about a £17m loss

So you’re at about £21m loss going into the final year. Which is this year. If we lose a similar figure to last year, we’d be close to the FFP limit of £39m

Please don’t take that £17m loss last year as fact, but I can see that it might not be a million miles off.

It's worth bearing in mind that the FFP P&S number is not directly based upon the pre-tax loss, but on 'Adjusted Earnings before Tax' with certain costs excluded.

Having gone through the exercise following the release of the accounts last month (Link), I'm not personally anticipating a '22/23 loss in that order of magnitude, largely thanks to the profit on player sales last summer.

I do expect this season's loss to be substantial, regardless of future inbound transfer activity, but not to the extent that we will be in danger of troubling the P&S upper loss threshold any time soon.

Some good stuff here mate.

Going to the post you linked, we must be restricted by the EFL based on point 4a - the Future Financial Information submitted earlier this year. The new ownership must be bound by what was submitted by the previous ownership??

I’m interested to know what you anticipate our loss for 22/23 will have been and what you feel this years might be?