FFP

[Baby Ate My Eight Ball]

The elephant in the room is the terms of the Hoyle sale / Nagle purchase. Do the club get all future transfer income on previous sales, eg Karlan Grant and O Brien? Or is that going Hoyle’s way as terms of the sale.

With the NDAs in place we’ll never know of course.

[waggers]

Aug 6, 2023 15:42:08 GMT 1 Baby Ate My Eight Ball said:

The elephant in the room is the terms of the Hoyle sale / Nagle purchase. Do the club get all future transfer income on previous sales, eg Karlan Grant and O Brien? Or is that going Hoyle’s way as terms of the sale.

With the NDAs in place we’ll never know of course.

I've heard a few different versions of what Hoyle will and won't receive as we move forward but the most reliable source out of them said that the majority of future installments from players already sold goes to Hoyle, as with future sell on fees.

[incognito]

Aug 6, 2023 13:39:25 GMT 1 Sparrow said:

Aug 6, 2023 9:18:45 GMT 1 incognito said:

It's worth bearing in mind that the FFP P&S number is not directly based upon the pre-tax loss, but on 'Adjusted Earnings before Tax' with certain costs excluded.

Having gone through the exercise following the release of the accounts last month (Link), I'm not personally anticipating a '22/23 loss in that order of magnitude, largely thanks to the profit on player sales last summer.

I do expect this season's loss to be substantial, regardless of future inbound transfer activity, but not to the extent that we will be in danger of troubling the P&S upper loss threshold any time soon.

Some good stuff here mate.

Going to the post you linked, we must be restricted by the EFL based on point 4a - the Future Financial Information submitted earlier this year. The new ownership must be bound by what was submitted by the previous ownership??

I’m interested to know what you anticipate our loss for 22/23 will have been and what you feel this years might be?

There's a (quite well camouflaged) link in the second line that takes you to a historical P&L Summary I update each year, onto which I've added a forecasts for 2023 and 2024 in order to be able to estimate the approximate FFP P&S position.

I feel comfortable ruling out an FFP breach as the reason for any EFL-imposed budgetary restrictions (if that is, indeed, what we are dealing with). I'm also struggling to get on board with the idea that we could be bound to a previous DH budget submission, as any proposed change in control requires a full resubmission detailing the financial implications of the takeover. My conclusion, cut and pasted from a previous post:

I'm as curious as everyone else as to the nature of these "relatively strict financial protocols" we are supposedly facing this season. If they are externally imposed I can only assume it is a condition of the takeover approval. The only other real alternative is that they are self applied in an effort to minimise this '23/24 loss and give ourselves the best possible (least negative) FFP starting point this time next year when the new regime has its feet properly under the table.

Hopefully some greater clarity will be forthcoming later this week...
 

[Teddington Ted]

Wouldn’t surprise me if he gets 50% of every Stetson and stick on moustache we ever sell in the club shop.

‘Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in’. Our very own Godfather.

[Baby Ate My Eight Ball]

Aug 6, 2023 15:50:23 GMT 1 waggers said:

Aug 6, 2023 15:42:08 GMT 1 Baby Ate My Eight Ball said:

The elephant in the room is the terms of the Hoyle sale / Nagle purchase. Do the club get all future transfer income on previous sales, eg Karlan Grant and O Brien? Or is that going Hoyle’s way as terms of the sale.

With the NDAs in place we’ll never know of course.

I've heard a few different versions of what Hoyle will and won't receive as we move forward but the most reliable source out of them said that the majority of future installments from players already sold goes to Hoyle, as with future sell on fees.

Historic player sales have financed the running of the club, and we don’t have any players left with significant value.

If Hoyle is taking that money out then it’s crippling one of our key sources of income.

Warnock is going to have to pull an absolute blinder this year to make us anything like competitive.

[hoggy1975]

Aug 6, 2023 15:42:08 GMT 1 Baby Ate My Eight Ball said:

The elephant in the room is the terms of the Hoyle sale / Nagle purchase. Do the club get all future transfer income on previous sales, eg Karlan Grant and O Brien? Or is that going Hoyle’s way as terms of the sale.

With the NDAs in place we’ll never know of course.

Can be asked at the Q and A, and will be very obvious if Nagle isn’t able to speak on the matter.

[townarentbest]

Aug 6, 2023 15:50:23 GMT 1 waggers said:

Aug 6, 2023 15:42:08 GMT 1 Baby Ate My Eight Ball said:

The elephant in the room is the terms of the Hoyle sale / Nagle purchase. Do the club get all future transfer income on previous sales, eg Karlan Grant and O Brien? Or is that going Hoyle’s way as terms of the sale.

With the NDAs in place we’ll never know of course.

I've heard a few different versions of what Hoyle will and won't receive as we move forward but the most reliable source out of them said that the majority of future installments from players already sold goes to Hoyle, as with future sell on fees.

Seems unlikely - wouldn't that be third-party-ownership akin to what brought Sam Allardyce down after he'd managed to con his way into the England job?

Of course, Dean does hold a floating charge over Hudds Town, which is potentially a loophole that works around TPO regulations.

Please can someone ask the relevant question at Magic Rock, as if it is the case, frankly its an option that seems to takes the biscuit - and I'd question in that case why KN wouldn't have allowed HTFC to go into admin if that really was the case, and then pick the club up cleanly...unless of course he feels that the constraints don't hamstring the viability of Town and he's simply wanting Dean to get some kind of return (presumably the deal to buy the club ended up being pretty favourable in the grand scheme of things).

And a follow up question - if there was a buyer in KN ready to take on the club, what specifically would the downsides of the club going into admin have been in reality? Would it really matter?

[prepare]

Aug 6, 2023 10:46:52 GMT 1 rockwall said:

Aug 6, 2023 10:36:09 GMT 1 robinvar said:

If new ownership does have money to invest then break the rules if they are so restrictive. Well lose more than 6 points or so if we don't strengthen that squad and first team. Others must sail pretty close to the wind.

Dumbest post this weekend

this year!! Goodness me

[prepare]

Aug 6, 2023 16:06:48 GMT 1 Baby Ate My Eight Ball said:

Aug 6, 2023 15:50:23 GMT 1 waggers said:

I've heard a few different versions of what Hoyle will and won't receive as we move forward but the most reliable source out of them said that the majority of future installments from players already sold goes to Hoyle, as with future sell on fees.

Historic player sales have financed the running of the club, and we don’t have any players left with significant value.

If Hoyle is taking that money out then it’s crippling one of our key sources of income.

Warnock is going to have to pull an absolute all if tblinder this year to make us anything like competitive.

it’s all iffthis all if that no one knows move on

[Deleted]

The idea that Hoyle is taking a portion of future transfer instalments sounds like absolute nonsense. It doesn’t make sense for any party.

Why would Hoyle write off the millions he’s invested into the club, then demand a small proportion of that back in a really convoluted and complicated way?

As has already been said, why would Nagle accept such a deal when he could have let the club go into admin and pick up the pieces?

The truth will likely be something much more boring.

[rockwall]

Aug 6, 2023 17:31:10 GMT 1 @superstevieharper said:

The idea that Hoyle is taking a portion of future transfer instalments sounds like absolute nonsense. It doesn’t make sense for any party.

Why would Hoyle write off the millions he’s invested into the club, then demand a small proportion of that back in a really convoluted and complicated way?

As has already been said, why would Nagle accept such a deal when he could have let the club go into admin and pick up the pieces?

The truth will likely be something much more boring.

You're last sentence - Nagle would have probably lost more this way as we would be a Lg1 club with no assets.

[crux]

Aug 6, 2023 15:50:23 GMT 1 waggers said:

Aug 6, 2023 15:42:08 GMT 1 Baby Ate My Eight Ball said:

The elephant in the room is the terms of the Hoyle sale / Nagle purchase. Do the club get all future transfer income on previous sales, eg Karlan Grant and O Brien? Or is that going Hoyle’s way as terms of the sale.

With the NDAs in place we’ll never know of course.

I've heard a few different versions of what Hoyle will and won't receive as we move forward but the most reliable source out of them said that the majority of future installments from players already sold goes to Hoyle, as with future sell on fees.

If that is anywhere near true, it needs to come out into the open. It makes the 'I've written off the debt' statement utter bollocks. For a start it gives him upto £5M a year from Grant, O'brien & Toffolo sales. Plus the unexpected sell-on income from Coady. It also makes the club uneconomic to run as the transfer income was helping to cover the losses.

[waggers]

Aug 6, 2023 17:16:45 GMT 1 prepare said:

Aug 6, 2023 16:06:48 GMT 1 Baby Ate My Eight Ball said:

Historic player sales have financed the running of the club, and we don’t have any players left with significant value.

If Hoyle is taking that money out then it’s crippling one of our key sources of income.

Warnock is going to have to pull an absolute all if tblinder this year to make us anything like competitive.

it’s all iffthis all if that no one knows move on

We're just discussing the clubs financial position, you can still move on and have a discussion about a topic. Hoyle's name is allowed to be mentioned.

[Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier]

It would appear that there are several posters on here connected to the Cowshed Loyal that will be at the q&a with KN on Thursday (Ben, pizza et al).

So, no excuses, don’t be afraid to ask those difficult, but necessary, questions. KN will have to respond, and his replies will be very telling. A mere “no comment” or “sorry, I can’t answer that” in this circumstance would be almost as enlightening as a thousand words, as would body language.

It should be an interesting evening and I wish I could be there.

[royrace]

Aug 6, 2023 17:53:15 GMT 1 crux said:

Aug 6, 2023 15:50:23 GMT 1 waggers said:

I've heard a few different versions of what Hoyle will and won't receive as we move forward but the most reliable source out of them said that the majority of future installments from players already sold goes to Hoyle, as with future sell on fees.

If that is anywhere near true, it needs to come out into the open. It makes the 'I've written off the debt' statement utter bollocks. For a start it gives him upto £5M a year from Grant, O'brien & Toffolo sales. Plus the unexpected sell-on income from Coady. It also makes the club uneconomic to run as the transfer income was helping to cover the losses.

You’d really like to think it isn’t true however it would explain why we don’t have a pot to piss in. Does anyone know even roughly what KN has paid for the club? There does seem to have been a strange obsession with getting money back since the PL years even though that was never part of the plan. Also KN has openly stated there is money due if we get promoted which is a bit weird tbh and I would assume unprecedented. An overage if you like based on potential future success. Smacks of greed tbh, let it go.

Hopefully all will become clear on Thursday because none of it makes any sense at the moment.

[themanfromatlantis]

Can that Pizza bloke ask a Q about whether we can name a stand after one of our old stalwart defenders?

The Chris(py) Topping stand… 😉

[dugnet]

Aug 6, 2023 18:28:48 GMT 1 Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier said:

It would appear that there are several posters on here connected to the Cowshed Loyal that will be at the q&a with KN on Thursday (Ben, pizza et al).

So, no excuses, don’t be afraid to ask those difficult, but necessary, questions. KN will have to respond, and his replies will be very telling. A mere “no comment” or “sorry, I can’t answer that” in this circumstance would be almost as enlightening as a thousand words, as would body language.

It should be an interesting evening and I wish I could be there.

I'm thinking of making the effort to attend and I'm more than prepared to ask the "difficult questions" in a respectful manner. As you say what is said, and in some cases, not said will be very enlightening.

I don't know what other people think but I'm getting fed up with the apparent pantomime that surrounds our club. Ever since Chelsea May 18 it feels like supporters have been forced to endure a series of baffling decisions supported by scant explanation. This has led to a culture of truths, half truths, misinformation, made up theories and speculation. I hoped that the transition to Mr Nagle would draw a line under all that nonsense, but apparently it continues.

I am more than prepared to afford Mr Nagle, and his team, the time to create their own structure and take the club forward but they need to properly set expectations and be as transparent as possible.

If as a club we are bound by agreements that are protected by NDAs how on earth have we moved forward? NB: the key word here is "if", because we are still in the realm of supposition.

Mr Nagle cannot be responsible for the past, and we need to move forward from the past, but I sincerely hope that the past isn't shaping our future.

Personally I hope Thursday gets the majority on the same page and we can genuinely move forward. If not I fear the gap between club and fans will grow rather than close.

Thursday looks like being the real start of the Nagle era. It's often said that it is seldom dull watching Town, but I settle for dull off the pitch and competitive on it.

[Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier]

Aug 6, 2023 18:55:49 GMT 1 dugnet said:

Aug 6, 2023 18:28:48 GMT 1 Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier said:

It would appear that there are several posters on here connected to the Cowshed Loyal that will be at the q&a with KN on Thursday (Ben, pizza et al).

So, no excuses, don’t be afraid to ask those difficult, but necessary, questions. KN will have to respond, and his replies will be very telling. A mere “no comment” or “sorry, I can’t answer that” in this circumstance would be almost as enlightening as a thousand words, as would body language.

It should be an interesting evening and I wish I could be there.

I'm thinking of making the effort to attend and I'm more than prepared to ask the "difficult questions" in a respectful manner. As you say what is said, and in some cases, not said will be very enlightening.

I don't know what other people think but I'm getting fed up with the apparent pantomime that surrounds our club. Ever since Chelsea May 18 it feels like supporters have been forced to endure a series of baffling decisions supported by scant explanation. This has led to a culture of truths, half truths, misinformation, made up theories and speculation. I hoped that the transition to Mr Nagle would draw a line under all that nonsense, but apparently it continues.

I am more than prepared to afford Mr Nagle, and his team, the time to create their own structure and take the club forward but they need to properly set expectations and be as transparent as possible.

If as a club we are bound by agreements that are protected by NDAs how on earth have we moved forward? NB: the key word here is "if", because we are still in the realm of supposition.

Mr Nagle cannot be responsible for the past, and we need to move forward from the past, but I sincerely hope that the past isn't shaping our future.

Personally I hope Thursday gets the majority on the same page and we can genuinely move forward. If not I fear the gap between club and fans will grow rather than close.

Thursday looks like being the real start of the Nagle era. It's often said that it is seldom dull watching Town, but I settle for dull off the pitch and competitive on it.

Agree with your post. If handled respectfully and correctly this q&a could be very educational and valuable to KN and his team as well as to the fans present. If he is serious about being in with Town “for the long haul” then he could learn an awful lot from the supporters. It will make his ownership so much easier and so much more rewarding (in all respects) to have the fans properly on his side. He can go some way to achieving that on Thursday. The right questions just need to be asked.

[Teddington Ted]

I do wonder what Hoyle was offering to enable KN to finalise the deal within 10 days, something he repeatedly said he’d never done previously.

Interesting how on his docu-soap he was saying how much potential there was to develop the land around the stadium.

Hoyle is a great salesman, I’ve no doubt he has sold KN a dream wrapped in an offer he couldn’t refuse. In return, he has got rid of a club that was costing him £5m a year to keep afloat, kept the Canalside complex and lined himself up a payday should we ever get promoted. Would it surprise anyone to discover there were other sweeteners in the deal?

I’d imagine he pretty much got given the club to allow Hoyle to turn the cash tap off. He is immediately trimming back to limit his monthly cash burn and future investment will be tied to increasing the club’s revenue.

If he fails, he’s lost v little. If he somehow hits the jackpot, him & DH get a nice payday.

Very tempting for an entrepreneur prepared to have a flutter. Great for an owner desperate to pass on a costly drain on his bank balance. Not great for the club and all its supporters.

But what do I know?

[King Curtis]

Aug 6, 2023 19:25:33 GMT 1 Teddington Ted said:

I do wonder what Hoyle was offering to enable KN to finalise the deal within 10 days, something he repeatedly said he’d never done previously.

Interesting how on his docu-soap he was saying how much potential there was to develop the land around the stadium.

Hoyle is a great salesman, I’ve no doubt he has sold KN a dream wrapped in an offer he couldn’t refuse. In return, he has got rid of a club that was costing him £5m a year to keep afloat, kept the Canalside complex and lined himself up a payday should we ever get promoted. Would it surprise anyone to discover there were other sweeteners in the deal?

I’d imagine he pretty much got given the club to allow Hoyle to turn the cash tap off. He is immediately trimming back to limit his monthly cash burn and future investment will be tied to increasing the club’s revenue.

If he fails, he’s lost v little. If he somehow hits the jackpot, him & DH get a nice payday.

Very tempting for an entrepreneur prepared to have a flutter. Great for an owner desperate to pass on a costly drain on his bank balance. Not great for the club and all its supporters.

But what do I know?

That's a real cool story if you actually think the deal was done in 10 days

[Teddington Ted]

Aug 6, 2023 19:42:27 GMT 1 King Curtis said:

Aug 6, 2023 19:25:33 GMT 1 Teddington Ted said:

I do wonder what Hoyle was offering to enable KN to finalise the deal within 10 days, something he repeatedly said he’d never done previously.

Interesting how on his docu-soap he was saying how much potential there was to develop the land around the stadium.

Hoyle is a great salesman, I’ve no doubt he has sold KN a dream wrapped in an offer he couldn’t refuse. In return, he has got rid of a club that was costing him £5m a year to keep afloat, kept the Canalside complex and lined himself up a payday should we ever get promoted. Would it surprise anyone to discover there were other sweeteners in the deal?

I’d imagine he pretty much got given the club to allow Hoyle to turn the cash tap off. He is immediately trimming back to limit his monthly cash burn and future investment will be tied to increasing the club’s revenue.

If he fails, he’s lost v little. If he somehow hits the jackpot, him & DH get a nice payday.

Very tempting for an entrepreneur prepared to have a flutter. Great for an owner desperate to pass on a costly drain on his bank balance. Not great for the club and all its supporters.

But what do I know?

That's a real cool story if you actually think the deal was done in 10 days

You may be correct. The truth seems to matter very little to our successive boards so why wouldn’t they make that ‘fact’ up too?

TBH, I wouldn’t be surprised if Kev ripped his ‘tache off to reveal he’s actually a bus driver from Barnsley who Hoyle paid extra to act all foreign and exotic to ‘sell’ the deal to us fans!

In fact, the final episode of the Hudderstown series will just be a Scooby Doo style big reveal, with Terry the Terrier as Scooby and Ryan Schofield back as Shaggy, unveiling Kev Nagle to actually be Ken Bagel: a divorcee from a South Yorkshire council estate who has mastered a vaguely passable California accent.

[King Curtis]

Aug 6, 2023 20:09:46 GMT 1 Teddington Ted said:

Aug 6, 2023 19:42:27 GMT 1 King Curtis said:

That's a real cool story if you actually think the deal was done in 10 days

You may be correct. The truth seems to matter very little to our successive boards so why wouldn’t they make that ‘fact’ up too?

TBH, I wouldn’t be surprised if Kev ripped his ‘tache off to reveal he’s actually a bus driver from Barnsley who Hoyle paid extra to act all foreign and exotic to ‘sell’ the deal to us fans!

Ok m8

[prepare]

Aug 6, 2023 18:46:09 GMT 1 royrace said:

Aug 6, 2023 17:53:15 GMT 1 crux said:

If that is anywhere near true, it needs to come out into the open. It makes the 'I've written off the debt' statement utter bollocks. For a start it gives him upto £5M a year from Grant, O'brien & Toffolo sales. Plus the unexpected sell-on income from Coady. It also makes the club uneconomic to run as the transfer income was helping to cover the losses.

You’d really like to think it isn’t true however it would explain why we don’t have a pot to piss in. Does anyone know even roughly what KN has paid for the club? There does seem to have been a strange obsession with getting money back since the PL years even though that was never part of the plan. Also KN has openly stated there is money due if we get promoted which is a bit weird tbh and I would assume unprecedented. An overage if you like based on potential future success. Smacks of greed tbh, let it go.

Hopefully all will become clear on Thursday because none of it makes any sense at the moment.

what ever he says some won’t believe it but there entitled to ask .

[willo]

Aug 6, 2023 18:28:48 GMT 1 Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier said:

It would appear that there are several posters on here connected to the Cowshed Loyal that will be at the q&a with KN on Thursday (Ben, pizza et al).

So, no excuses, don’t be afraid to ask those difficult, but necessary, questions. KN will have to respond, and his replies will be very telling. A mere “no comment” or “sorry, I can’t answer that” in this circumstance would be almost as enlightening as a thousand words, as would body language.

It should be an interesting evening and I wish I could be there.

Where is this Q&A being held?

[turbo2]

Aug 6, 2023 15:50:23 GMT 1 waggers said:

Aug 6, 2023 15:42:08 GMT 1 Baby Ate My Eight Ball said:

The elephant in the room is the terms of the Hoyle sale / Nagle purchase. Do the club get all future transfer income on previous sales, eg Karlan Grant and O Brien? Or is that going Hoyle’s way as terms of the sale.

With the NDAs in place we’ll never know of course.

I've heard a few different versions of what Hoyle will and won't receive as we move forward but the most reliable source out of them said that the majority of future installments from players already sold goes to Hoyle, as with future sell on fees.

Surely not??

He’s sold the club properly this time.

[htafcdreams]

Difficultly with QA session is fans typically came out believing every word fed to them. The Hoyle QAs were unbelievable smear campaigns to throw staff and players under the bus.

Find Kev better so far interviews. Just hopefully we move from hot air into action interms of squad additions of quality and not letting our promising youth depart.

[htafcdreams]

Difficultly with QA session is fans typically came out believing every word fed to them. The Hoyle QAs were unbelievable smear campaigns to throw staff and players under the bus.

Find Kev better so far interviews. Just hopefully we move from hot air into action interms of squad additions of quality and not letting our promising youth depart.

[Wingman]

Aug 7, 2023 0:34:16 GMT 1 willo said:

Aug 6, 2023 18:28:48 GMT 1 Walton-on-the-Hill Terrier said:

It would appear that there are several posters on here connected to the Cowshed Loyal that will be at the q&a with KN on Thursday (Ben, pizza et al).

So, no excuses, don’t be afraid to ask those difficult, but necessary, questions. KN will have to respond, and his replies will be very telling. A mere “no comment” or “sorry, I can’t answer that” in this circumstance would be almost as enlightening as a thousand words, as would body language.

It should be an interesting evening and I wish I could be there.

Where is this Q&A being held?

Magic Rock taproom in Hudds, Ringway Industrial Estate end. Thurs from 7pm IIRC.

[Tinpot]

Aug 5, 2023 18:50:21 GMT 1 Detective Boyle said:

Aug 5, 2023 18:45:42 GMT 1 mrg said:

The fact we couldnt sign hungbo who surely didnt go for £1m worries me tbh.

If I'm honest, I can understand this one. Hungbo has great potential but was hit and miss. If we're spending money, it should be spent on consistency. We're crying out for a player who can control the game in the middle, for instance.

As competition for Sorba he'd have been ideal IMO. We don't appear to have any, save for playing someone out of position.

If he was still here (at the risk of upsetting Porroh) Duane Holmes was probably our next best option. Fuck knows who we'd put there now if Sorba is injured, suspended or needs dropping for some other reason.

[themanfromatlantis]

Social media and football supporters. Donald Trump would have a field day...

Not sure if some of our lot are supporters or snipers?